Should transgender people be allowed to use the restroom which is the same as their identity?

VoyagerSTVoyagerST Posts: 111 ✭✭
edited August 2015 in Politics & Current Events
That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering [...] every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our speicies lived there - on a mote or dust suspended in a sunbeam. -Carl Sagan

Should transgender people be allowed to use the restroom which is the same as their identity? 55 votes

Yes, transgender people should be able to use the restroom in which they are the most comfortable
90% 50 votes
No, transgender people should use the restroom which is the same as their biological sex
9% 5 votes
«1

Comments

  • SchlemielSchlemiel Posts: 5
    It seems like a pretty silly thing for people to have a problem with. I know transgender people and thinking they would attack anyone is ridiculous.

    Besides which what are they going to do? If someone is checking me out in the restroom I'm going to get creeped out regardless of whether they are genetically my sex or not.
  • McEstebanMcEsteban Posts: 773 ✭✭✭
    There is a reason bathrooms are separated by gender.  Safety, comfort, and sanitation all come into play.  You can identify as whatever you want so that you can be comfortable but that doesn't mean that I don't have a right to be uncomfortable with it if I so choose, along with everyone else in the room.  I do not think it is unreasonable for people to use the correct bathroom based on genitalia.  I get that we are trying to break down gender barriers and I generally support that, but this just seems like a wall that doesn't need to be torn down.
  • Lavache_BeadsmanLavache_Beadsman New YorkPosts: 661 ✭✭✭
    edited September 2015
    McEsteban said:
    There is a reason bathrooms are separated by gender.  Safety, comfort, and sanitation all come into play.  You can identify as whatever you want so that you can be comfortable but that doesn't mean that I don't have a right to be uncomfortable with it if I so choose, along with everyone else in the room.  I do not think it is unreasonable for people to use the correct bathroom based on genitalia.  I get that we are trying to break down gender barriers and I generally support that, but this just seems like a wall that doesn't need to be torn down.
    I'm a senior at a college where all dormitory restrooms are coed. We are all safe and clean. Most colleges have this policy. But anyway, we're not talking about "coed bathrooms" here. Bathrooms would still be single-sex, because the people using them would all identify as the same gender.

    That aside, this myth that archaic conceptions of gender are the only thing keeping our public restrooms from becoming some sort of apocalyptic space is silly and unfounded. Of course you have a right to be comfortable. Nobody is making you use the bathroom. If you'd rather PIZZZAA in the woods than share a bathroom with someone whose genitalia used to be different than yours, that's your prerogative. But you do not, however, have a right to ban people from using the restroom based on that person's sexual history.

    My feeling, though, is that soon enough this will eventually be a non-issue as far as policy is concerned. It will go the way of interracial marraige and LGBT people in the military. 
    by Lavache_Beadsman
  • VoyagerSTVoyagerST Posts: 111 ✭✭
    I would like to preface this by saying I am not transgender and I cannot speak for transgender people. What I am about to say is totally reliant on things I have read online written by transgender people about their experiences.

    @lavache_beadsman You have an interesting argument, but I have a comment on one line of your post. You said, "...share a bathroom with someone whose genitalia used to be different than yours..." Not all transgender people choose to go through sex reassignment surgery (changing their genitals), and others plan to but haven't yet. I think it is important for people to realize this, partly to avoid comments like, "Guys don't understand how frustrating it is to have a uterus," when it should be, "People without uteruses don't understand how frustrating it is to have one," because there are men with uteruses and women without uteruses. Not having the genitals usually associated with their gender doesn't make them "less trans," or mean they shouldn't be able to use the restroom that they are more comfortable with. Gender is not biological, it is mental and emotional. And please, please, please don't ask transgender people about their genitalia. It is humiliating and inappropriate. You would never ask a cisgender person about their genitalia, so don't ask a trans person.

    On another note, I spent some time on a college campus this summer. In the physics building (where I spent most of my time) and in the library, the bathrooms were separated into genders, but in the food court there were two unisex bathrooms. I thought this was wonderful. Unisex bathrooms not only keep trans people from having to choose between comfort and safety, but also help gender queer and intersex people feel less marginalized.

    And finally, like @schlemiel said, I'm going to be creeped out if anyone is checking me out in the restroom, regardless of gender, biology or genetics.
    That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering [...] every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our speicies lived there - on a mote or dust suspended in a sunbeam. -Carl Sagan
  • Lavache_BeadsmanLavache_Beadsman New YorkPosts: 661 ✭✭✭
    edited September 2015
    @VoyagerST I would and have asked cisgendered people about their genitalia. I understand why it's a more sensitive subject with trans people though, the conversation being fundamentally different, and I have always respected that sensitivity when I've met transgendered people.

    In any event, I was unsure of the used to comment myself, so thanks for clearing that up. Although I must say, this entire conversation really makes me think we should all hop on the queer theory bandwagon and move on.
    by Lavache_Beadsman
  • McEstebanMcEsteban Posts: 773 ✭✭✭

    That aside, this myth that archaic conceptions of gender are the only thing keeping our public restrooms from becoming some sort of apocalyptic space is silly and unfounded. Of course you have a right to be comfortable. Nobody is making you use the bathroom. If you'd rather PIZZZAA in the woods than share a bathroom with someone whose genitalia used to be different than yours, that's your prerogative. But you do not, however, have a right to ban people from using the restroom based on that person's sexual history.

    My feeling, though, is that soon enough this will eventually be a non-issue as far as policy is concerned. It will go the way of interracial marraige and LGBT people in the military. 
    If I don't feel comfortable using the same bathroom as someone whose gender does not match mine then I should go PIZZZAA in the woods but if someone else who has changed their gender doesn't feel comfortable then we should cater to their whim.  Doesn't seem really fair.  Even with realizing that I have a long established privilege when it comes to where I can do my business, I hardly think the proper reaction to my discomfort is effectively telling me to go pound sand.  While no is forcing me to use the bathroom, you would probably see a lawsuit right quick if you disrespected most of your employees to abide one.  Denying employees or residents reasonable access to a bathroom isn't very pretty.  And this isn't even about trans people being a minority, therefore allowing the majority to dictate their lives.  In many instances that is wrong and in the history of civil rights law the minority usually wins.  However the minority, in this case trans people, shouldn't be dictating to the majority how the most fundamental conventions of gender or incorrect and that they must embrace a new way or be branded a bigot.  Neither side really seems to win that.

    I think that if you choose to change how society perceives your gender then you must deal with the consequences of what happens when society views you as your fully realized gender.  If you want to change genders that is fine.  If you want to break down gender roles that is also fine.  But I believe, and I am more than welcome to have you explain how I am wrong here, that men are men and women are women.  Choose which camp you want to be in and then live in that camp.

    Interesting point about the coed bathrooms but you probably elected for such a circumstance and were not bothered by the implications.  Not everyone is fine with coed bathrooms, additionally not everyone that is fine with coed bathrooms would care to use them with people who couldn't easily identify their gender.  The existence of coed bathrooms doesn't change my argument all that much.
  • Lavache_BeadsmanLavache_Beadsman New YorkPosts: 661 ✭✭✭
    edited September 2015
    @McEstaban So let people sue if they don't like it, as you think they would. They've already started to, and so far the justice system has come down on the side of trans people. I won't comment on your implication that allowing trans people to use their corresponding restroom is somehow "disrespectful" to cisgendered people.

    And again, you seem to come at the problem in this very bizarre way. You seem to think that by allowing trans people to use the "correct" bathroom, cis people are somehow denied access to that restroom. The minority would not be dictating anything. They would simply be subject to the same privacy that cis people are afforded.

    There have been entire books written about why you are fundamentally--biologically, socially, and historically speaking--wrong 
    about "men being men and women being women." I can recommend some if you'd like. Sexing the Body by Ann-Fausto Sterling (a professor of biology at Brown). The History of Sexuality by Michel Foucault. Evolution's Rainbow by John Roughgarden. Short of trying to summarize hundreds upon hundreds of pages of historical/biological research and arguments, the best I can do is ask questions that hint at why you are wrong. Where, for instance, do intersex people fit into your tautology (which is what it is, by the way, a tautology, if we're to speak in terms of logic)? Or do intersex people just not count as people? How has gender historically been defined, and where do modern ideas about it come from? Etc.


     The existence of coed bathrooms in and of itself wasn't the point (though everywhere on campus has this policy, so I did not exactly "choose" it, and sure, was less than comfortable with it at first). The point is that they exist, and moreover, their success at universities across the country is evidence against the public coed restroom as this somehow unsafe place. 

    In any event, I will refrain from saying any more on this subject, because, as I said, this entire conversation makes me want to go hide in a very dark room for the next 20 years. Can we all please just become good little queers and live in a genderless utopia soon? :)
    by Lavache_Beadsman
  • StultumStultum The kingdom of DagonautPosts: 4
    I'm fine with that. Actually, I don't care about bathrooms (because there are stalls, and, if you are male, remember that you don't have to use an urinal) but I would really like transgenders to use the showers of the gender they identify as - I don't want a guy to be in the shower with me, no matter their biological sex.
    'Everyone calls me the fool,' he said, 'But my mother calls me Marius.'
          - Tonke Dragt, The letter for the king
  • Lavache_BeadsmanLavache_Beadsman New YorkPosts: 661 ✭✭✭
    Stultum said:
    I'm fine with that. Actually, I don't care about bathrooms (because there are stalls, and, if you are male, remember that you don't have to use an urinal) but I would really like transgenders to use the showers of the gender they identify as - I don't want a guy to be in the shower with me, no matter their biological sex.
    So don't use public shower facilities. This argument that you're personally made uncomfortable by other people's bodies does not give you the right to deny those people access to the stuff that cis people feel they're entitled to.

    For what it's worth, again, I live in a college dorm with coed bathrooms. This means both girls and boys use the showers in those bathrooms. It's really not a big deal.
  • NerdWriterFighterNerdWriterFighter HogwartsPosts: 167 ✭✭
    I am not sure if this would solve anything or not, but I would like to bring up a thought that I had while viewing this that could be put up into discussion.  How about instead of basing bathrooms by gender, we instead refer bathrooms by weather we have a penis or a vagina?  It would solve the problem for transgender being separated from bathrooms by gender because sex is being refereed to instead of gender and people will also feel safe doing so.

    Then again, bullying could still happen in restrooms because there are some people will harrass and attack transgendered people because look different.  But then again, violence could still happen if they used the bathrooms accommodated with their gender.  I think a different approach will be needed to keep violence from happening to trans in bathrooms
  • VickiVicki Posts: 2,905 ✭✭✭✭
    Umm ... what's the issue with unisex/coed/gender neutral bathrooms? Surely you're not in the same shower/toilet cubicle as other people at the same time, and at home everyone uses the same bathroom? 
    "This is not words. This is just squiggles on a page.This is notation." - Vi Hart
    I reside in the land of the last ones. 

  • leonwingsteinleonwingstein VTPosts: 2,679 Mod
    Just a preface: I'm cisgender, and don't speak on behalf of the transgender community.

    Additionally, if a person who is transgender were to use a bathroom that is not for their gender identity (their real gender), that's really invalidating of their gender in general.  It's like you're saying "Yes, I believe you're x, but really deep down I don't, because I'm making you go to the y bathroom."

    And I agree with the idea of a unisex bathroom.  They've been coming into play all over the place, and I've yet to hear of any problems with them.  They also erase all of the issues that come with people who don't conform to the gender binary, having to choose a bathroom to go into.  And many unisex bathrooms, in general, are more accessible for people with disabilities--another extra benefit of them.
    "Even in the darkness, every color can be found." -Dr. Horrible's Sing-Along Blog | "Remember: You're unique, just like everyone else." -Warren Miller
    "Like cheese in our pockets, these are the Pizza in Our Pants." | THE LAST ONE WHO VLOGS HERE WINS
    You can call me LeoN or Jezzy.  Or anything else, though I might not recognize or respond. | Diamond of the Last Ones
  • NerdWriterFighterNerdWriterFighter HogwartsPosts: 167 ✭✭
    @leonwingstein ; I may be wrong, I am also cis, but isn't sex and gender two different things?  Sex is what kind of genitalia you have and gender is how you identify yourself.
  • Lavache_BeadsmanLavache_Beadsman New YorkPosts: 661 ✭✭✭
    edited January 2016

    @leonwingstein ; I may be wrong, I am also cis, but isn't sex and gender two different things?  Sex is what kind of genitalia you have and gender is how you identify yourself.

    Depends who you ask. According to some, "gender" is a social category, open to how one identifies, while "sex" is a "scientific," intractable category determined by one's genitalia and chromosomes.

    There are many who think that "sex" is just as socially inflected as gender. There's a terrific book about this (which I think I already mentioned on this thread), written by Ann Fausto-Sterling (a biologist at Brown University), called "Sexing the Body." Highly recommended.
    by Lavache_Beadsman
  • VoyagerSTVoyagerST Posts: 111 ✭✭
    Something interesting a girl I know said is that she would rather share a changing room/bathroom with a gay man than a gay woman. In other words, separate people by sexuality instead sex or gender. Of course, this would never work because of bisexual and pansexual people exist, but it's an interesting take on things.

    And @leonwingstein, another benefit of unisex bathrooms is they keep intersex people (people who are born with ambiguous genitals) from having to choose to use the men's or women's bathrooms.

    Finally, I like that people are prefacing posts with something along the lines of "I am not transgender and do not speak for the transgender community." :)
    That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering [...] every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our speicies lived there - on a mote or dust suspended in a sunbeam. -Carl Sagan
  • jimspider13jimspider13 Miss London, UKPosts: 3,916 ✭✭✭
    edited March 2016
    .
    by jimspider13
  • jimspider13jimspider13 Miss London, UKPosts: 3,916 ✭✭✭
    edited March 2016
    .
    by jimspider13
  • jimspider13jimspider13 Miss London, UKPosts: 3,916 ✭✭✭
    @McEsteban
    The main issue I have with your post is that of changing gender. As a Dmab (designated male at birth) person I was assumed and forced though societal pressure to express as male.
    However I have always been female.

    Now on to the bathroom thing. As a trans woman if I where to go into the women bathroom I would use a stall, wash my hands and leave; meaning I would be separate from all the other women (which i'm very happy with as I don't wish to be looked upon while doing my business, nor do I want to look upon any other woman doing their business).
    Then if I where to go into a mens bathroom I would also used a cubical, however I would also be scared of getting assaulted as any woman would going into a mens bathroom.

    So I fail to see how I'm harming anyone. Also most trans people wjo have been on HRT for a long time look indigisisable to cis people.
  • jimspider13jimspider13 Miss London, UKPosts: 3,916 ✭✭✭
    Stultum said:

    I'm fine with that. Actually, I don't care about bathrooms (because there are stalls, and, if you are male, remember that you don't have to use an urinal) but I would really like transgenders to use the showers of the gender they identify as - I don't want a guy to be in the shower with me, no matter their biological sex.


    You mean transgender people or persons, not transgenders.

  • jimspider13jimspider13 Miss London, UKPosts: 3,916 ✭✭✭

    I am not sure if this would solve anything or not, but I would like to bring up a thought that I had while viewing this that could be put up into discussion.  How about instead of basing bathrooms by gender, we instead refer bathrooms by weather we have a penis or a vagina?  It would solve the problem for transgender being separated from bathrooms by gender because sex is being refereed to instead of gender and people will also feel safe doing so.

    Then again, bullying could still happen in restrooms because there are some people will harrass and attack transgendered people because look different.  But then again, violence could still happen if they used the bathrooms accommodated with their gender.  I think a different approach will be needed to keep violence from happening to trans in bathrooms

    First you mean trans people, not just trans.
    Second, when surrounded by other Dmab (designated male at birth) people in bathrooms I fear for my safety. But when surrounded by other women I feel safe.
    This isn't irrational fear either. In the early stages of my transition I had been attacked when using male bathrooms (I used male bathroom because I hadn't worked up the curage to use female bathrooms). However when i started using female bathroom it just became a bathroom.
  • NerdWriterFighterNerdWriterFighter HogwartsPosts: 167 ✭✭
    @jimspider13

    Sorry about using the wrong words.

    Just out of curiosity, there was a trans man who used the men's restroom, would there be more violence or less violence than if he used the women's restroom?
  • RolloRollo Operative 6081, MiniTrue Airstrip Three, OceaniaPosts: 1,904 ✭✭✭
    Build Unisex single occupant bathrooms.

    Game over.
    "I speak an infinite deal of nothing and I am not bound to please thee with my answers."

    I've written four books - you might like to buy them: Linky - Doobly Doo
  • KGB_the_Russian_SpyKGB_the_Russian_Spy The Actually Rather Divided States of AmericaPosts: 3,668 ✭✭✭
    (Just as a preface, I'm cisgender, and don't speak for or represent the trans community)

    One of the things that bugs me about this issue is the idea that allowing trans people (especially trans women) to be unable to use the restroom that they identify as is how people are claiming this will start an epidemic of cis men pretending to be trans women so that they can rape women. Like, no. That's ridiculous. It's not like you need to show identification to be able to use a public restroom, and without the law, men will still be able to just walk right into the bathroom.

    Even worse are people who say that it will be the actual trans women doing the raping. No. Just no. There have been exactly zero reported cases of rape by trans women, and trans people are actually more likely to be the victims of sexual assault.

    Long story short, don't try to disguise transphobia and transmisogyny as "protecting women."
    "Fairy tales are more than true, not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten"  ~Neil Gaiman
  • STUFFknowledgeSTUFFknowledge Posts: 95 ✭✭✭
    i wonder if this would work.
    1 - all restrooms are just a buncha floor to ceiling stalls.
    2 - so if u need to do your business, you just go into a stall, shut and lock the door and do your business
    3 - if anybody f's with anybody else, they get prosecuted.

    this way it'd be about the same as going to the bathroom at an outdoor festival; portapotty stylee
  • Lavache_BeadsmanLavache_Beadsman New YorkPosts: 661 ✭✭✭
  • RialVestroRialVestro Posts: 6,285 ✭✭✭
    I don't think this is a simple yes or no question. The option I want isn't even an option that I think anyone else has considered.

    I don't think we should have bathrooms separated by gender in the first place. That would eliminate this whole issue of weather you should use the bathroom of the gender you were born with or the one you identify as.

    From the perspective of a transgender person, you want people to accept you as the gender you identify as. However if you haven't undergone a full cosmetic change yet, most parents don't really want their little girl going into a public restroom and seeing a man's penis. This forces parents to tech their children about sex much earlier than they would like. Personally I think kids should be learning earlier anyway because then maybe there won't be so many teen pregnancies. Most kids figure it out on their own before they learn about it from their parents or schools and that's why they get pregnant. Kids don't learn about sex until after they've already had sex and by then it's too late.

    On the other side of things there's also the possibility that some people may just say that they identify that way just so they can gain access to that bathroom. I personally know two guys, one who was caught doing this, and one who admitted to doing it. Not to the women he was taking advantage of but he'd brag about it to his friends. There's no way of telling if someone actually identifies this way or not so people could go into whatever restroom they want and no one can say anything about it.

    Now here's my issue. I am a man, I identify as a man, but I don't see how being forced to change or use the restroom with other men makes me any safer than if I were to share space with women. In fact as a straight man, I'd actually feel safer with women than with other men.

    From my perspective, I don't care what other people's sexual preferences are as long as it doesn't effect me. But when I'm in a bathroom stall and some guy is standing on the toilet in the stall next to me staring down at me while I'm going to the bathroom, I don't want to share a bathroom with them. I'm not just making up some random situation with that last example, that's something that actually happened to me. I think I was in second or third grade at the time. I heard heavy breathing and looked up to see another male watching me while I was on the toilet. I've been afraid to use public restrooms ever since then. There was another incident as well a year or two later where two older boys actually wouldn't let me leave the bathroom. I've never felt safe in a public rest room. I hate that saying that "it shouldn't matter because we all have the same parts" what does that have to do with it? If it's just about sex then I'm not gay so why would I feel safer with other men? That makes no sense.

    I'd rather have to share a locker room or bathroom with a girl or have a private room to myself not be forced into a room with a bunch of other men. As I said above, I don't care what your sexual orientation is as long as it doesn't effect me. When I'm being forced to undress in front of you, that's when it does effect me. As far as I'm concerned the only people who should see me naked are myself and whoever I'm willingly having sex with. Not some stranger I ran into in a public bathroom.

    Just get rid of the stalls and build private bathrooms that anyone can use. Get rid of the locker rooms as well and build private dressing rooms. This shouldn't be a gender issue, it should be a privacy issue. No one should be forced to undress in front of anyone if they don't want to regardless of that person's gender. And like I said in the beginning, birth gender or gender identity doesn't matter at this point. If bathrooms were private like they should of been to begin with, this wouldn't even be an issue. I hate those damn stalls.
    Ni, peng, nee-wom! Ecky, ecky, ecky, pakang, zoom-ping! Baa weep grahna weep ninny bong!
  • KGB_the_Russian_SpyKGB_the_Russian_Spy The Actually Rather Divided States of AmericaPosts: 3,668 ✭✭✭
    edited May 2016

    The option I want isn't even an option that I think anyone else has considered.

    Rollo said:

    Build Unisex single occupant bathrooms.

    That said, I do think this is a good idea, especially for people who don't identify as either gender.
    by KGB_the_Russian_Spy
    "Fairy tales are more than true, not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten"  ~Neil Gaiman
  • VoyagerSTVoyagerST Posts: 111 ✭✭
    I haven't looked at this post in several months, but it looks like there has been some interesting discussion going on, and with the whole North Carolina issue going on, I thought I might bump it up again.

    @jimspider13 You make an excellent point about safety. You wouldn't be any safer in a men's bathroom than I (biosex female who pretty much identifies as such) would be, and probably in even more danger.

    @ many people. Yes. Intersex bathrooms. Problem solved.

    And, in case people haven't seen it, Sexplanations did a good video on this topic a few weeks ago:
    That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering [...] every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our speicies lived there - on a mote or dust suspended in a sunbeam. -Carl Sagan
  • gfightergfighter Posts: 4
    Ultimately, gender is just a social construct which we use to distinguish ourselves and give ourselves an identity. Bathrooms are currently segregated based on sex/gender - if this was based on race, everyone would immediately be protesting and rioting, but for some reason society deems sex/gender segregation to be perfectly fine, even in sports, schools and hospitals. It seems to me that women generally opt to be segregated as it reinforces their notion of predator males who seem to always be 'checking them out', but this is wholly outdated and very stereotypical. Stereotypes are fine, as long as they are not used to discriminate or hate - how else would we establish social relationships for example. I find no reason to segregate or even mark bathrooms by gender as they just reinforce historical constrictions and limit personal liberty and freedoms. MAKE AMERICA FREE AGAIN (JK IT WAS NEVER COMPLETELY FREE) XD
  • VoyagerSTVoyagerST Posts: 111 ✭✭
    TW: brief mention of rape

    @gfighter I agree about gender being a social construct. And, on the note of "predator males," while the concerns are legitimate, segregation of bathrooms based on sex is not the solution, or even part of the solution. The solution lies in better sex education and teaching kids the meaning of NO. "Be careful of people who might rape you" is way more common than "don't rape people." While that statement should seem to be obvious, it apparently isn't. I'm not saying that this will fix all the problems, because we tell people "don't steal" and "don't murder," but some choose to do it anyway. However, in the grand scheme of things, education is more important than what bathroom you're allowed to go to.
    That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering [...] every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our speicies lived there - on a mote or dust suspended in a sunbeam. -Carl Sagan
Sign In or Register to comment.