Should transgender people be allowed to use the restroom which is the same as their identity?

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  • RolloRollo Operative 6081, MiniTrue Airstrip Three, OceaniaPosts: 1,900 ✭✭✭
    edited June 2016
    gfighter said:

    for some reason society deems sex/gender segregation to be perfectly fine, even in sports, schools and hospitals.

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-05-28/matildas-face-backlash-after-loss-to-boys-team/7456458
    A largely negative reaction proceeded the Matildas' 7-0 loss against a young, male Newcastle Jets team in a training exercise on Wednesday night.

    - ABC News, 28th May 2016.

    I think that's it's pretty obvious to say that to say that gender is only a social construct, is demonstrably false. There are differences in anatomy and hormonal software. As the example of the Australian National Women's Football Team being beaten 7-0 by an under-15's boys side shows, at least physically, those differences are real.
    by Rollo
    "I speak an infinite deal of nothing and I am not bound to please thee with my answers."

    I've written four books - you might like to buy them: Linky - Doobly Doo
  • Luke_Earl_MolleLuke_Earl_Molle Earl of Peace Jefferson, IaPosts: 3,007 ✭✭✭✭
    There is one idea that I think nobody ever thinks about anymore. If people don't feel safe in the bathrooms because other people could do something to hurt them, if people are scared of being abused while they use the bathroom the problem isn't with the bathroom, it is with people. I find it despicable that we feel the need to separate bathrooms, I find it disgusting that people can't just treat people right. How about we all grow up and realize that we are all people and that we need to stop harming each other because it gets us nowhere. The only problem is everybody being good is something that doesn't happen, so enough with this pipe dream.

    Unisex bathrooms really seem like a good solution to me, I think another thing should be putting all of the the toilets in stalls and doing something to prevent attacks outside the stalls. If your little girl is in the women's restroom she should never see a penis even if there are five women in there that haven't had their operation yet. Nudity shouldn't be happening outside of the stalls in public. People aren't mature enough for that, society doesn't except nudity anywhere else where you are likely to run into strangers for a reason. Nobody should have the genitals showing while they are out of a bathroom stall. That fixes that problem, the other problem it fixes is nobody can know what you have down there if you don't show them. So maybe if we can wait till we are in the bathroom stall to disrobe we wouldn't even be having this conversation. Maybe if we respected the privacy of others, even if it is because they could be the wrong type of person, nobody would know what was beneath your clothes unless they wanted to.

    The world is changing faster than a lot of people can process, there are big changes happening in what is and isn't considered normal and it is shocking a lot of people. We are finally moving past so many things and not everybody is ready quite yet, that means that people on both sides are going to be uncomfortable from time to time. Things are changing in this world and we are moving in the right directions for the most part, we just have to make sure that we keep changing the world, the people who are resistant will see the reasons why all human are equal, eventually everybody will be ready for the world, as long as we work towards it. People shouldn't have to worry about everybody else's genitalia and hopefully that comes soon but until everybody stops constantly wondering about the genitalia of the person in the stall next to them I will make sure not to think about the genitalia of the people in the bathroom with me, and I won't let them see my genitalia because that would be inappropriate.
    I am the Duke of Earl, and I also am Earl For To and Of Peace
  • McEstebanMcEsteban Posts: 773 ✭✭✭
    The thing that I don't quite grasp is why are laws needed to either protect or reverse the traditional gender assignments in bathrooms? If people are going to do as the wish anyway, like before the laws, and the laws cannot feasibly be enforced, the whole issue seems much ado about nothing.
  • clausitclausit EnglandPosts: 7,809 ✭✭✭✭
    McEsteban said:

    The thing that I don't quite grasp is why are laws needed to either protect or reverse the traditional gender assignments in bathrooms? If people are going to do as the wish anyway, like before the laws, and the laws cannot feasibly be enforced, the whole issue seems much ado about nothing.

    They aren't needed. That's the whole point. To enforce the laws requires essentially that every person is ID'd before they can use the bathroom since you can't tell by looking who is or is not transgendered in general. That is absurd. The only other option is to go by eye which a) causes anyone who just naturally doesn't fit with preconceived notions of what a particular gender 'should' look like to be harassed and suspected and b) doesn't do anything to fix the 'problem' since plenty of trans people can 'pass' without difficulty. Not to mention that the sheer existence of a law like this sends a very clear message to trans people that they are wrong, that their existence is not respected by the state and that they need to shut up and stop acting so weird because it is making other people uncomfortable.

    Seriously, why the PIZZZAA does it matter if a 'man' wants to act/dress/speak/behave like a 'woman.' What business is it of yours what someone else does to their own body? How is this so PIZZZAA difficult for people to understand? What would you rather a person who looks, talks, acts and to all outward appearances is a man to go to the male bathroom and PIZZZAA in the stalls, or to walk into the womans bathroom and have to awkwardly explain to everyone there that it's the law and he has to barge into their space and make everyone instantly uncomfortable because of what it says of their birth certificate?
    You will come to a place where the streets are not marked. Some windows are lighted but mostly they're darked. A place you could sprain both your elbow and chin. Do you dare to stay out? Do you dare to go in? How much can you lose? How much can you win?
  • RialVestroRialVestro Posts: 6,256 ✭✭✭
    gfighter said:

    Ultimately, gender is just a social construct which we use to distinguish ourselves and give ourselves an identity.

    Actually gender is determined biologically by a set a chromosomes, the XX or XY, that determine weather you're going to develop a penis or a vagina. It also determines how your body will change during puberty, weather you will produce testosterone and sperm or estrogen and eggs. Ect. ect.

    Anything beyond the biological definitions of gender is just a social construct. This includes men having short hair while women have long hair. Blue is for boys, pink is for girls. Boys like sports, girls like cooking. Boys wear pants, girls wear dresses. These are social constructs as non of this has anything to do with gender.
    gfighter said:

    Bathrooms are currently segregated based on sex/gender - if this was based on race, everyone would immediately be protesting and rioting,

    Actually that did use to be a thing and people accepted it for a long time. Originally bathrooms were segregated into three different rooms, men, women, and blacks. It wasn't till Martian Luther King Jr. started protesting for the equal rights of all races that this was changed. Before that black men and black women were forced to share a bathroom. They weren't allowed in the white bathrooms.

    Black people actually complained that they had to share a bathroom with the opposite sex while white people had separate bathrooms. Women were often raped in black bathrooms. Girls would some times try to sneak into the white women's room because they felt it was safer than going into the black bathroom where possibly a man was in there waiting.
    gfighter said:

    but for some reason society deems sex/gender segregation to be perfectly fine, even in sports, schools and hospitals.

    The reason for that is because some religious prudes thought that premarital sex was disgusting and in an attempt to stop it from happening they made laws regarding sex and nudity. Boys and girls aren't suppose to even see the opposite sex naked until after marriage. This is also really the only reason why sex is censored more heavily in the media than violence.

    This is part of the reason why this debate exists in the first place. Parents don't want people who are biologically male to see their daughters naked. Though I personally don't understand this reasoning.

    As an Atheist my view on marriage is that it's just a piece of paper that tells the world you love each other. You're going to see the person naked eventually anyway so it really doesn't matter if you're married or not. Plus we know homosexuality is a thing that exists so shouldn't this rule apply to everyone not just the opposite gender?

    Of course those same religious people don't want gays to get married so maybe they thought it wouldn't be an issue for members of the same gender to see each other naked. But if seeing someone naked automatically equals sex then setting up a system where only members of the same gender can see each other naked is automatically going to result in everyone being gay. Their logic makes no sense... which I find is typical of the religious people.
    gfighter said:

    It seems to me that women generally opt to be segregated as it reinforces their notion of predator males who seem to always be 'checking them out', but this is wholly outdated and very stereotypical. Stereotypes are fine, as long as they are not used to discriminate or hate - how else would we establish social relationships for example. I find no reason to segregate or even mark bathrooms by gender as they just reinforce historical constrictions and limit personal liberty and freedoms. MAKE AMERICA FREE AGAIN (JK IT WAS NEVER COMPLETELY FREE) XD

    Is that why we only ever hear about man on woman crimes? Granted it does happen and I think if men and women shared bathrooms and locker rooms it would happen far more often. However I think the idea that women live under the constant fear of it every time they enter a bathroom or locker room is an exaggeration. They make it sound like if you go to the bathroom together you're automatically going to have sex every single time you go in there. That isn't true of sharing a bathroom with lesbians so why would it be true of sharing a bathroom with straight men? You're always at risk of being raped or molested weather you share with men or not. The old system really isn't any safer than the new system. It's really just a matter of who would you rather have staring at you naked, a pervert of your own gender or a pervert of the opposite gender, either way there are perverts. I'd rather deal with perverted women because I'm more comfortable with women anyway.

    The reality is, most people are just going in there to do their business and get out. No one really likes sharing a bathroom with anyone. Especially if you have to go number 2, that's just the worst. It smells, you're embarrassed, everyone else is grossed out... there isn't anything sexy about that. Even with everything I've said, even with the fact that I have had another man watch me while I'm pooping... even I realize most people don't want to be there any more than I do. It would be no different if we had co-ed bathrooms.

    The only system that would really make a difference is private bathrooms. As long as we have shared public spaces there will always be perverts making people uncomfortable. It doesn't matter if they're same gender, opposite gender, gay, straight, whatever, there are perverts in every group. There's no such thing as a safe space to undress so long as that space forces you into uncomfortably striping in front of people who you never gave consent to look at your nakedness.
    Ni, peng, nee-wom! Ecky, ecky, ecky, pakang, zoom-ping! Baa weep grahna weep ninny bong!
  • gfighter said:

    Ultimately, gender is just a social construct which we use to distinguish ourselves and give ourselves an identity.

    Actually gender is determined biologically by a set a chromosomes, the XX or XY, that determine weather you're going to develop a penis or a vagina. It also determines how your body will change during puberty, weather you will produce testosterone and sperm or estrogen and eggs. Ect. ect.
    I agree with much of what you said but I feel like you may be conflating sex and gender here. A person's sex is whatever they were born with and to change that you gotta go through surgery and hormones and stuff. It should be noted that some folks are born Intersex, ya'll can wiki for more info, but it isn't actually a binary deal. Gender, on the other hand is entirely performative and socially constructed. This incidentally is why the Trans community has been moving to drop the -sexual or -gender suffix cause its really not anyone business who's had surgery.

    Personally on the bathroom thing, I was on a co-ed floor with co-ed bathrooms and I feel like everyone should have that experience, because its super weird for a whole two weeks and then everyone gets on with their lives. The folks with man bits did end up making a designated pee stall so they didn't have to wait on the folks with lady bits to get in and out, and it was honestly super normal. So I'm pro unisex bathrooms for everyone.
  • astralliciastrallici Posts: 8
    I think that if those people have transitioned to the gender they feel they are, ex. born male-> has now the appearance of a female, therefor present themselves as one, then they should use the female bathroom. I understand that people can be born this way and they feel like their biological gender doesn't match their "psychological" (?) gender but we must understand that this isn't only about them. It can be uncomfortable for some women to be in the same bathroom with a trans woman that still looks as a man and doesn't present themselves as a woman, and in the same time if you can't understand that this person IS a trans woman then they wouldn't have a problem using the male bathrooms because they'd be seen as a man.

    I think this is important for trans people that have made a "sex change" (i don't know the right term), and I'm not talking just about genitals but anything that could indicate they are trans on their appearance.

    Unisex bathrooms are a good choice for specific places. Bathrooms are not only used to pee and poop, especially by women. They put their makeup on, sometimes need some "help" on period emergencies etc.
  • RialVestroRialVestro Posts: 6,256 ✭✭✭
    "I agree with much of what you said but I feel like you may be conflating sex and gender here."

    Sex and gender are synonyms. Of course I'm equating them because they literally mean the same thing.

    Biological sex/gender and sexual/gender identity are different things but there isn't really a single word that differentiates the two. In that quote I was clearly speaking about biology not identity.

    "A person's sex is whatever they were born with and to change that you gotta go through surgery and hormones and stuff."

    They can only change your physical appearance. Biologically speaking it's impossible to actually change how you were born. Maybe in the future that will change, I mean hormone therapy is still relatively new. However even with that we still do not have a way to make reproduction actually possible after a sex change, we still don't have any way to change XY Chromosomes into XX or vice versa. So at least right now with our current understanding of biology, whatever your born with is what you're stuck with.

    "It should be noted that some folks are born Intersex, ya'll can wiki for more info, but it isn't actually a binary deal."

    The reason reproduction doesn't work after a sex change is because there's no way to artificially create a working reproductive system inside of someone that wasn't naturally born that way.

    It is possible to be both with both sets of genitals but this is fairly rare. In this instance it would be possible to have a sex change and still have a working reproductive system because they're born with both to begin with. A sex change for them isn't going from male to female or female to male, it's going from both genders to only one gender.

    It should also be noted that in some ways things are easier for them. They were born with both sets of genitals so people are more willing to accept them choosing a more normal socially acceptable single gender than with someone who was born with one and wants to switch to the other.

    In other ways things are harder for them because they're often forced into a more normal socially acceptable single gender. The choice of weather they have surgery to remove the male or the female genitals can be made by the parents before they're even old enough to have a sexual identity. Some of them if given the option choose not to fix it at all because they don't really see a problem to fix in the first place.

    This is another reason why I think we should just get rid of the whole male and female restroom thing because it perpetuates the idea that you have to be one or the other. People who are born both don't really have a place they can feel comfortable. Though having said that I think it's more important that we make it illegal for parents to choose the gender of their intersex child. That should be up to the child if they want that not for the parents to decide for them.

    "This incidentally is why the Trans community has been moving to drop the -sexual or -gender suffix cause its really not anyone business who's had surgery."

    I agree... Unless you're in a relationship then I fell it is their right to know what they're getting into before you have sex. But in any other circumstance, it doesn't really matter if you were born that way or had a sex change.

    It's the same thing with homophobia. Why do people care so much about what two consenting adult men are doing in the privacy of their own home. If you're not the one having sex with that person than it's none of your business what they do with their own bodies.

    You don't like sex change, fine don't have a sex change. You don't like gay sex, fine don't have gay sex. No one is forcing you to do that stuff. It doesn't change anything about your straight gendered life so there's no reason you should care about what other people do in private.

    We should be focusing more on children that are forced against their will to do things they might regret when they're older instead of worrying about what consenting adults are doing with their own lives. I'm personally more concerned about infants having their genitals cut off because their parents thought it looked better than adults having their own genitals cut off because they thought it looked better. At least with the adult it's his own body, his own decision, not something that was forced on him by someone else.

    "Personally on the bathroom thing, I was on a co-ed floor with co-ed bathrooms and I feel like everyone should have that experience, because its super weird for a whole two weeks and then everyone gets on with their lives. The folks with man bits did end up making a designated pee stall so they didn't have to wait on the folks with lady bits to get in and out, and it was honestly super normal. So I'm pro unisex bathrooms for everyone."

    I didn't even know bathrooms like that existed. The only co-ed bathrooms I've ever seen consists of a single toilet so only one person at a time can use it. I've never seen a co-ed bathroom with stalls.
    Ni, peng, nee-wom! Ecky, ecky, ecky, pakang, zoom-ping! Baa weep grahna weep ninny bong!
  • RialVestroRialVestro Posts: 6,256 ✭✭✭

    I think that if those people have transitioned to the gender they feel they are, ex. born male-> has now the appearance of a female, therefor present themselves as one, then they should use the female bathroom. I understand that people can be born this way and they feel like their biological gender doesn't match their "psychological" (?) gender but we must understand that this isn't only about them. It can be uncomfortable for some women to be in the same bathroom with a trans woman that still looks as a man and doesn't present themselves as a woman, and in the same time if you can't understand that this person IS a trans woman then they wouldn't have a problem using the male bathrooms because they'd be seen as a man.

    I think this is important for trans people that have made a "sex change" (i don't know the right term), and I'm not talking just about genitals but anything that could indicate they are trans on their appearance.

    Unisex bathrooms are a good choice for specific places. Bathrooms are not only used to pee and poop, especially by women. They put their makeup on, sometimes need some "help" on period emergencies etc.

    I don't think it's fair to force people into making a physical sex change before they can be allowed to use the bathroom they identify with.

    In case you don't know I have multiple personality disorder and actually share my male body with a female personality. I suffer from constant physical pain and because pain killers don't work on me even if Hawk were in complete control at all times going into surgery just so she can use the women's bathroom isn't really an option.

    Being that she's not in complete control at all times and has to share a body with a bunch of guys it's also not realistic to expect us to have surgery switching back and forth between male and female every single time we need to go in a different restroom.

    I also have a friend born female with the same problem where her alternate personality identifies as male. Again, it's not really an option for them to have a sex change to the gender they identify with because that's constantly changing depending on who's driving.

    I believe there are also some transgenders who dress and act like the opposite sex they were born as but don't have any desire to have surgery. They want to be treated as the gender they identify with regardless of how they might look.

    Of course this poses a problem that any man can just say they're trans without actually identifying as a woman just because he's a pervert. I've known guys like that. For some reason women seem totally comfortable undressing in front of and letting men touch their privates when they believe them to be gay. I've known two men who have pretended to be gay for exactly that reason. One was found out and was never allowed to touch her that way again after that. The other openly brags about it when it's only men around him but the girls have no idea. I don't know why they believe it, why a gay man want to grab their privates all the time. That alone should let them know he's not really gay but this guy was constantly grabbing girls and they would just shrug it off like it's ok, he's gay. No he's not. He's never had a boyfriend and is constantly touching girls inappropriately without their consent, he's straight and a pervert.

    This is again why I say we should have private bathrooms not be forced to share them with other people we might not be comfortable undressing in front of. There's really no other way to make everyone happy. As long as people are being forced to do their private business in a public place someone is always going to be uncomfortable with the other people they have to share the space with. It doesn't matter if they're the same gender or not, if they look the same gender or not, they're called PRIVATE parts for a reason. They're suppose to be PRIVATE. You should only be required to share them with your intimate consensual partner not a bunch of random strangers you're forced to share a bathroom with.
    Ni, peng, nee-wom! Ecky, ecky, ecky, pakang, zoom-ping! Baa weep grahna weep ninny bong!
  • RolloRollo Operative 6081, MiniTrue Airstrip Three, OceaniaPosts: 1,900 ✭✭✭
    Wynyard Station, Sydney.



    These are unisex toilets it doesn't matter what gender you identify with. Anyone can use them.

    From earlier in this thread:
    Rollo said:

    Build Unisex single occupant bathrooms.

    Game over.


    "I speak an infinite deal of nothing and I am not bound to please thee with my answers."

    I've written four books - you might like to buy them: Linky - Doobly Doo
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