Why I hate Snoke and Kylo Ren (Spoiler Warning)

RialVestroRialVestro Posts: 6,285 ✭✭✭
If you're not already familiar with the Star Wars expanded universe don't worry I'm not either. However when the first trailer was released I did do some research into it trying to figure out the identity of the new villain. However after seeing the movie I discovered that while they seem to have drawn some inspiration from the expanded universe a lot was changed.

First off we have Shira Elan Colla Brie AKA Lumiya. Though it doesn't actually refer to her using the title Darth it does say that she was the Sith Lord who turned Han Solo's son to the Dark side. She does have that alias though so I kind of imagine that her name should be Darth Lumiya. Instead what we got was Supreme Leader Snoke. There is no known alias for Snoke, at least not at this time. Unfortunately at this point there is probably no way we can get Snoke changed back to Lumiya. They're just too different to fix that. As long as they stick the Darth title on his name at some point I'm OK with that though as Lumiya didn't use it either and it really should be there.

We've been told about Darth Plagueis, we had Darth Sidious even though he wasn't always called that and didn't even know that name till the prequels were made, Darth Maul, Darth Tyrannus though again that name was so rarely heard in the films that most people didn't even realize it was Count Dooku's Sith name, and of course Darth Vader. I feel like this new movie is trying to ignore the existence of the prequels by abandoning the title used for every Sith Lord. This being said, Kylo Ren was actually suppose to be called Darth Caedus.

Changing the name of Darth Caedus to Kylo Ren wasn't the only name change made to that character. The idea of him being the son of Han and Leia Solo was completely accurate to the expanded universe however his name was Jacen not Ben. Ben is actually the name Luke Skywalker's son and it makes more sense for Luke to name his son after Obi-Wan Kenobi than for Han and Leia. Han never really liked Old Ben Kenobi and Leia never really knew him. She knew about him but the two of them never actually spoke, he was killed during her rescue from the Death Star. Luke is the only one who really had any attachment to him.

Now over all this was still a really great movie but I seriously think they need to do some Audio Dialog Replacement to record new lines for this movie removing every mention of the Knights of Ren, changing Ben back to Jacen, and replacing every mention of Kylo Ren to Darth Caedus. The actor even looks like Jacen Solo so I don't know why they changed his name. Kylo Ren is just a really stupid name. Knowing all this, even if they don't change it back to the way it was, I'm refusing to use his new names. As far as I'm concerned his name is Jacen Solo/Darth Caedus, I don't care what Disney says.
Ni, peng, nee-wom! Ecky, ecky, ecky, pakang, zoom-ping! Baa weep grahna weep ninny bong!

Comments

  • I will preface this post by saying that I loved the new film, and that I watched it 4 times.

    The new movie sort of retcons any of the information from the "expanded universe." The things you've mentioned aren't "mistakes" made by the writers, they're just proof that there will be little (if any) connection to the "expanded universe". Otherwise, Ben would have siblings. That being said, you could call the dude Jacen all you want, but he's not Jacen Solo. It would make as little sense as calling him Ben Skywalker. Which he obviously isn't. You could argue that they took inspiration from Jacen, but, honestly, I think all they were trying to do was mirror the father-son rift we saw in Luke and Anakin. That's basically sums up what Episode VII was; a mirror to the original trilogy.

    As for Snoke's identity; The most popular theory is that he is Darth Plagueis. Darth Sideous claimed to have killed him, but Plagueis was said to have discovered immortality. This would explain why Snoke looks so messed up.

    You do bring up some good points, though; why isn't Kylo Ren given the title of Darth? Snoke is obviously a Sith Lord. Shouldn't his apprentice be a Darth?
    What you said about Obi Wan is also a good point. Leia knew about Obi Wan, she sent him a message through R2, but she's never really met him. And Han didn't seem to care that much about him. Why name your kid after some old dude you're barely connected with?

    I don't really care that they're ignoring the expanded universe. And why would you? You said it yourself; you're not too familiar with it.
  • RialVestroRialVestro Posts: 6,285 ✭✭✭
    I never said it was a mistake made by the writers. A mistake would imply that it was an accident rather than a deliberate choice. I'm just saying I don't like that choice. And he is clearly meant to be Jacen Solo. The characters follows a very similar path and look very similar to each other. Seriously the actor they cast to play Ben Solo in the movie looks like he came right out of the comics.

    They made other minor changes as well, the light saber design and the helmet he wears in the movie were not in the comics... at least not as far as I know... but these minor changes don't really make him an entirely new character. He's still the son of Han and Leia who turns to the Dark side and becomes the first major villain to appear after the events of the original film. Some other details may of changed but this is still just a retelling of that same story.

    To put it into Transformers terms, they constantly retell the same story over and over again, some things change, others stay the same. Trailbreaker is now called Trailcutter because of copy right reasons but he's just a different version of that same character the same way that Ben Solo is just Disney's version of Jacen Solo.

    As for the stuff about Ben Skywalker, they may share a name but Ben Solo shares way more in common with Jacen Solo than Ben Solo.

    "I don't really care that they're ignoring the expanded universe. And why would you? You said it yourself; you're not too familiar with it."

    I don't really care that they're ignoring the expanded universe either but the changes they've made here also ignore the previous movies not just the expanded universe.

    According to the EU not every Dark Side force user is a Sith however if you're totally ignoring the EU which you should because that completely contradicts the films, then every Dark Side Force user is a Sith. The films have only ever established one character who was trained by the Sith but isn't a Sith Lord and he's not even force sensitive, that's why he's not a Sith despite being trained by one. That character is General Grevious who was trained to fight with light sabers by Darth Tyranus.

    It's always been Jedi vs. Sith. Everything else was introduced in the Expanded Universe. And the Sith all use a Darth alias. They technically don't have to call him Darth Caedus. I'd be perfectly fine if they called him something else. The only reason I hate his name so much is because it's Kylo Ren. They don't have to use Caedus but they do have to use Darth.

    The same thing goes for his real name. I don't hate it because that's not what he was called in the EU, I hate it because it doesn't make any sense to call him Ben. I wouldn't mind so much about the name change if the name change actually made any sense. Han actually became good friends with Luke and being Leia's brother I could totally understand them naming their son after him. Luke Solo would of been a perfectly acceptable change. But going from Jacen to Ben makes no sense to me.

    Also I really hope the theory that Snoke is Darth Plagueis turns out to be true. That's one of the best fan theories I've ever heard. Plus it would explain how the Sith were able to return after Darth Sidious and Darth Vader were both killed. There was talk of a prophecy that a chosen one would bring balance to the force by destroying the Sith. Everyone thought that this prophecy was fulfilled when Anakin redeemed himself and killed Palpatine but personally I think that if the prophecy were really fulfilled then there wouldn't be any reason to make a sequel. I think the prophecy was actually about Luke or possibly Rey who I believe is Luke's daughter. That prophecy that they talked about in the prequels will really be fulfilled probably at the end of Episode 9 when Snoke is killed and Solo is either killed or turned back to the light side... which may not happen. Darth Vader still had some redeeming qualities but I think Solo lost any chance at redemption after he killed his father. I could be wrong though, his mother is still around... unless he kills her too... and possibly his cousin... I think the whole reason he killed Han though was so that he could finally resist the pull from the light side of the force so it's going to be harder now if not impossible to bring him to the light side.
    Ni, peng, nee-wom! Ecky, ecky, ecky, pakang, zoom-ping! Baa weep grahna weep ninny bong!
  • I still think calling Ben Solo "Jacen" is a huge stretch. I could accept that, maybe, a writer read about Jacen and Han, and thought the spin on the Father/Son dynamic was a great parallel for Anakin's relationship with Luke. In fact, I think it's very likely. Just the mere fact that they called him Ben (which we both agree does not make sense much in this canon) proves that they are drawing influence from the extended universe. But even then, the only real similarities Ben Solo shares with Jacen Solo is that he is Han and Leia's kid, Luke trained him and that he was seduced by the Dark Side. Which seems like a lot, but really, it's only because that's all we know about him.
    Again, I could accept that these aspects of the character were heavily influenced by the extended universe. In fact, I think that's part of what the Ben Solo character represents. But to say something like "He is clearly meant to be Jacen" is like saying "He will certainly kill his sibling," or "He certainly killed Luke's wife". You can't just list some common traits, say Ben Solo was MEANT to be Jacen Solo, and then ignore all their differences.
    I'll say this much; if it turns out that Ben Solo actually DID kill Luke's wife, then I'll concede.

    And to be quite honest, I don't really think Adam Driver looks very much like Jacen Solo. You say he looks like he's "straight out of the comics." I don't see what you're seeing. Maybe show me some comparison pictures. I think Oscar Isaac looks more like Jacen Solo, if you asked me.

    Also, there is a theory that title Kylo comes from his mother and fathers surnames.
    S'KY'walker, So'LO'. A stretch, I'll admit, but I don't really think there will ever be an explanation for the title.

    And I'm not completely sold on Rey being Luke's daughter. Despite the fact that it makes the most sense, the way she reacted to Anakin's lightsaber. My gripe is this; Why the hell does she have an English accent?
    I dunno. If Rey really is Luke's kid, maybe her mother had an English accent.
  • RialVestroRialVestro Posts: 6,285 ✭✭✭
    "But to say something like "He is clearly meant to be Jacen" is like saying "He will certainly kill his sibling," or "He certainly killed Luke's wife". You can't just list some common traits, say Ben Solo was MEANT to be Jacen Solo, and then ignore all their differences."

    Saying that he is clearly meant to be Jacen Solo when they are actually very similar characters is not the same as saying that he will kill any specific characters that Jacen may have killed.

    The Force Awakens is also very similar to A New Hope which multiple people have pointed out. There's a desert planet, a droid with plans that the villains are trying to get, a giant battle station weapon that destroys planets which the rebels have to destroy by attacking it's one weak point.

    I'm not ignoring the difference, if anything you're ignoring the similarities. If it was just about emulating the father son relationship of the original films then shouldn't Luke be the father? The only reason to make Han the father is because they're clearly drawing inspiration from Jacen.

    "And to be quite honest, I don't really think Adam Driver looks very much like Jacen Solo. You say he looks like he's "straight out of the comics." I don't see what you're seeing. Maybe show me some comparison pictures. I think Oscar Isaac looks more like Jacen Solo, if you asked me."

    When I was looking up pictures of Jacen Solo I just realized that there's actually been a few different versions of him done by different artists. One of which looks nothing like Adam Driver so maybe you haven't seen the same pictures I have.

    http://1.media.dorkly.cvcdn.com/76/31/e54aedb5351db6afb1a52a26c49c1283-jacen-solo.jpg

    This is the first image of Jacen Solo I ever saw. Same hair style that Adam Driver has in the movie, and very similar facial structure. If you still don't see the resemblance I also found another picture which looks even more like him.

    http://mimg.ugo.com/200807/14627/cuts/jacen-solo_288x288.jpg

    In this image his hair isn't entirely right but the facial structure matches much better with the narrow chin and large nose.

    "My gripe is this; Why the hell does she have an English accent?
    I dunno. If Rey really is Luke's kid, maybe her mother had an English accent."

    Um... almost everyone in the Star Wars universe has an English accent and it really doesn't make sense for anyone to have one as there has never been any evidence that England or the Earth for that matter even exist in the Star Wars universe.

    Ignoring that completely for a minute. There is a real world explanation for why her accent is different than Luke's. Kids don't develop their parents accent. Their accent comes from where they grow up not where their parents grew up. I use to know six sisters and a brother who all spoke perfect English... though for some reason pronounce mayonnaise and coconut weird... otherwise they don't really have an accent at all. Their mother speaks with a French accent that none of her kids have. Another example, one of my old co-workers was a German woman who grew up in Germany. Her accent was so thick that even though she spoke English it was still difficult to understand her. Her daughter worked back stage with me and when I first met her I had no idea that they were even related. The daughter doesn't have an accent at all because she was born and raised in the U.S.

    Kids might share their parents accent when they're little, before they start going to school because that's all they know. Rey was only about 4 or 5 when her parents left her on Not-Tatooine. Being that she's now in her late teens early 20's and she hasn't seen her parents at all in years she would have a different accent. Her accent is based on where she grew up not who her parents are.
    Ni, peng, nee-wom! Ecky, ecky, ecky, pakang, zoom-ping! Baa weep grahna weep ninny bong!
  • CooliusFreezerCooliusFreezer Posts: 13
    edited January 2016
    Saying that he is clearly meant to be Jacen Solo when they are actually very similar characters is not the same as saying that he will kill any specific characters that Jacen may have killed.
    Firstly, saying Ben is "clearly meant to be Jacen Solo" and say he and Jacen are "actually very similar characters" are vastly different statements. "Clearly meant to be Jacen Solo" is an absolute statement. By saying that, you are suggesting they wrote in Jacen Solo, and then changed his name. I'd believe these similarities are due to influence and inspiration before I believe what you're suggesting.

    Secondly, it's not even just the killing. I'm sure there is more about Jacen that isn't written into Ben Solo, and visa versa.

    I'm not ignoring the difference, if anything you're ignoring the similarities. If it was just about emulating the father son relationship of the original films then shouldn't Luke be the father? The only reason to make Han the father is because they're clearly drawing inspiration from Jacen.
    I'm not ignoring any similarities at all. I've acknowledged, more than once, that Jacen and Ben Solo share many common traits. But "share many common traits" is not enough evidence to suggest that Ben was meant to be Jacen. Again, that is a pretty absolute statement.

    Regarding the parents:
    Really, it was either or; Either Luke's kid or Leia's kid.
    Sure, they could have made Luke the father. And they could introduce his wife, and they could really focus on her for a good chunk of the films, to establish the character and her relationship to the others, in order to nurture a strong connection with the audience.
    Or they could just make Han and Leia his parents, and use the time they've saved to actually tell a damn story. Like they did.
    Inspiration? Maybe that played a part. But even then, Ben wouldn't have "meant to be" Jacen, he would be "inspired" by Jacen. That's what I don't like about your arguments; you interchange "meant to be" and "inspired by" like they mean the same thing. The don't.

    Um... almost everyone in the Star Wars universe has an English accent and it really doesn't make sense for anyone to have one as there has never been any evidence that England or the Earth for that matter even exist in the Star Wars universe.
    Giving her an accent was absolutely deliberate. John Boyega (An ENGLISH actor) was told to do an American accent for the role, so we know that there have actually been some discussion on accents. I doubt, in those discussions, that "Daisy picked up a new accent from her new surroundings" was ever brought up. That is a half-assed thought. If they wanted her to have an American accent, they would have given it to he. If she has an English accent, I'm sure there's a reason for that, as well.
    Again, I agree that Rey being Luke's daughter makes the most sense, when considering her reaction to Anakin's lightsaber. I'm just not entirely convinced she is.

    Also...

    http://33hpwq10j9luq8gl43e62q4e.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/images/star-wars-7-vf.jpg

    I still don't see it, dude. I mean, maybe the dark hair, but it is styled VERY differently. Jacen looks more like Chris Pine, or a young Johnny Depp.
    by CooliusFreezer
  • RialVestroRialVestro Posts: 6,285 ✭✭✭
    edited January 2016
    saying Ben is "clearly meant to be Jacen Solo" and say he and Jacen are "actually very similar characters" are vastly different statements. "Clearly meant to be Jacen Solo" is an absolute statement. By saying that, you are suggesting they wrote in Jacen Solo, and then changed his name. I'd believe these similarities are due to influence and inspiration before I believe what you're suggesting.

    I'm not saying that his name is the only thing they changed. It's just the only thing that really annoys me. And that's only really because I don't like what they changed his name to. Meant to be is the same thing as saying based off of which you seem to agree with.

    Inspiration? Maybe that played a part. But even then, Ben wouldn't have "meant to be" Jacen, he would be "inspired" by Jacen. That's what I don't like about your arguments; you interchange "meant to be" and "inspired by" like they mean the same thing.

    Because they are the same thing.

    To simplify this a bit I'm going to use two versions of Optimus, G1 and Beast Era. Both these characters exist in the same universe but are not the same character. Optimus Primal is clearly meant to be Optimus Prime, that does not mean that he is Optimus Prime only that he's based on Optimus Prime. He is the leader of the Maximals, he shares the same name, his design was heavily influenced by Optimus Prime however despite all this is a totally different character. Optimus Primal even says in Beast Wars that he took his name from the original Optimus which clearly identified him as a separate character. Meant to be doesn't automatically mean that he is.

    I could also say that Armada Sparkplug is clearly meant to be Bumblebee. There's even more evidence to support this as not only does he share a similar design with the G1 character but his Japanese name is Bumble which is also the Japanese name for G1 Bumblebee. Energon Downshift also shares a similar design to G1 Wheeljack and his original Japanese name was actually Wheeljack. These two characters much like Ben Solo were clearly based on G1 character. There's more solid evidence to actually prove that's who they were meant to represent but really I didn't even need to look at the Japanese origins to find this out.

    Saying that Ben Solo is meant to be Jacen is not an absolute statement. Saying that Ben Solo is Jacen would be an absolute. Meant to be just means that he's clearly based on or inspired by the character and that's what his name was meant to be. It does not mean that he has to be exactly like the character he was inspired by.

    Giving her an accent was absolutely deliberate. John Boyega (An ENGLISH actor) was told to do an American accent for the role, so we know that there have actually been some discussion on accents. I doubt, in those discussions, that "Daisy picked up a new accent from her new surroundings" was ever brought up. That is a half-assed thought. If they wanted her to have an American accent, they would have given it to he. If she has an English accent, I'm sure there's a reason for that, as well.
    Again, I agree that Rey being Luke's daughter makes the most sense, when considering her reaction to Anakin's lightsaber. I'm just not entirely convinced she is.


    What does any of this have to do with that quote? You seem to replying to an entirely different quote.

    Anyway I'm sure the idea that REY... Not Daisy, Daisy is the actress, Rey is the character, picked up her accent from where she grew up has been discussed. Apparently you haven't noticed that Luke and Leia don't even share the same accent despite being brother and sister. Also Anakin and Padme have different accents than their kids. So why would you expect Luke's daughter to speak in the same accent when no other member of his family does?
    by RialVestro
    Ni, peng, nee-wom! Ecky, ecky, ecky, pakang, zoom-ping! Baa weep grahna weep ninny bong!
  • Damn. You reply quick.

    I'm not saying that his name is the only thing they changed. It's just the only thing that really annoys me. And that's only really because I don't like what they changed his name to. Meant to be is the same thing as saying based off of which you seem to agree with.

    Actually, I disagree with that statement. I thought I was clear about that.

    To simplify this a bit I'm going to use two versions of Optimus, G1 and Beast Era. Both these characters exist in the same universe but are not the same character. Optimus Primal is clearly meant to be Optimus Prime, that does not mean that he is Optimus Prime only that he's based on Optimus Prime. He is the leader of the Maximals, he shares the same name, his design was heavily influenced by Optimus Prime however despite all this is a totally different character. Optimus Primal even says in Beast Wars that he took his name from the original Optimus which clearly identified him as a separate character. Meant to be doesn't automatically mean that he is.

    I could also say that Armada Sparkplug is clearly meant to be Bumblebee. There's even more evidence to support this as not only does he share a similar design with the G1 character but his Japanese name is Bumble which is also the Japanese name for G1 Bumblebee. Energon Downshift also shares a similar design to G1 Wheeljack and his original Japanese name was actually Wheeljack. These two characters much like Ben Solo were clearly based on G1 character. There's more solid evidence to actually prove that's who they were meant to represent but really I didn't even need to look at the Japanese origins to find this out.

    Saying that Ben Solo is meant to be Jacen is not an absolute statement. Saying that Ben Solo is Jacen would be an absolute. Meant to be just means that he's clearly based on or inspired by the character and that's what his name was meant to be. It does not mean that he has to be exactly like the character he was inspired by.


    This seems like an argument for selective semantics, if anything.
    For certain, "Meant to be" and "meant to represent" can be very different statements.
    If you were to argue that Ben Solo REPRESENTED Jacen, we wouldn't be having this discussion. I don't totally agree, but I wouldn't really oppose the idea. But when you say things like...

    Now over all this was still a really great movie but I seriously think they need to do some Audio Dialog Replacement to record new lines for this movie removing every mention of the Knights of Ren, changing Ben back to Jacen, and replacing every mention of Kylo Ren to Darth Caedus. The actor even looks like Jacen Solo so I don't know why they changed his name.

    ... it convinces me that you actually (or, at least, originally) believe(d) that Ben Solo was Jacen Solo with a different name. After a statement like "changing Ben back to Jacen," I find it a bit hard to believe that when you say "meant to be", you actually intended to say "meant to represent". Again, it sounds almost as if you thought they wrote in Jacen and changed his name to Ben.

    Or maybe you were being facetious.

    What does any of this have to do with that quote? You seem to replying to an entirely different quote.


    I was responding to your response about accents. You argued they didn't matter, and I'm arguing that they do.

    Anyway I'm sure the idea that REY... Not Daisy, Daisy is the actress, Rey is the character, picked up her accent from where she grew up has been discussed. Apparently you haven't noticed that Luke and Leia don't even share the same accent despite being brother and sister. Also Anakin and Padme have different accents than their kids. So why would you expect Luke's daughter to speak in the same accent when no other member of his family does?

    Oh, you know what I meant. I even mentioned Rey's name in my post. It was simply an oversight, no need to exaggerate it.

    Luke, and Leia, and Anakin, and Padme, and Han, and Ben Solo do not have Received Pronunciation accents. Sure, you could argue that their US accents were different from one another, but in the Star Wars universe, there is definitely SOME logic involved for its various dialects.
    High Ranking Imperial Officers always sound like Britons. Storm Troopers always sound like Americans. That at least proves some sort of separation between the two dialects. At least in the case of the US and RP accents, in this universe, there seems to be at least a BIT of logic.
    Even in the new film, high ranking First Order Officers (Hux, in particular) have RP accents. Again, John Boyega was told to speak in a US accent (in retrospect, probably because Storm Troopers traditionally spoke like Americans.) Hell, even Daniel Craig spoke like an American in his cameo. These are deliberate choices made by Abrams.
    I believe that Daisy Ridley's RP accent was kept intentionally, and I don't think the suggestion that Rey picked it up from Jaku is a strong enough argument for it. It's an argument, for sure, but I just don't buy it. If she really is Luke's kid, and if we're following the logic of this universe, I don't know why she wouldn't have a US dialect, like every other member of her family. Writing-wise, it just seems too clumsy to me.
  • RialVestroRialVestro Posts: 6,285 ✭✭✭
    Actually, I disagree with that statement. I thought I was clear about that.

    You misunderstood... which is partially my fault with the way I worded that. I meant that Ben being inspired by Jacen you seem to agree with not that those two phrases mean the same thing. Obviously you disagree with that but you do seem to agree that Ben is based on Jacen.

    ... it convinces me that you actually (or, at least, originally) believe(d) that Ben Solo was Jacen Solo with a different name. After a statement like "changing Ben back to Jacen," I find it a bit hard to believe that when you say "meant to be", you actually intended to say "meant to represent". Again, it sounds almost as if you thought they wrote in Jacen and changed his name to Ben.

    This looks like a contradiction to me because you're talking about one thing as if it's two different things. I'm finding it hard to understand what it is you think I said when you're talking about what I actually said as if it's something completely different.

    As best I can understand it you're taking a comment I made about a NAME to some how encompass that character's entire story. As I pointed out with Sparkplug and Downshift, just because they were meant to be called Bumblebee and Wheeljack doesn't mean they are meant to be the exact same characters from G1. They're different incarnations of those characters who exist in an entirely different universe just as Ben is a different incarnation of Jacen. Just because his name should be Jacen doesn't mean the entire story has to be exactly identical to the comics. It only means that his name should be Jacen. Nothing else about that character is implied by that statement, it's a statement about his name and only his name.

    I was responding to your response about accents. You argued they didn't matter, and I'm arguing that they do.

    I know what you were replying to but that's not what you quoted.

    You quoted this: Um... almost everyone in the Star Wars universe has an English accent and it really doesn't make sense for anyone to have one as there has never been any evidence that England or the Earth for that matter even exist in the Star Wars universe.

    But actually replied to this: Anyway I'm sure the idea that REY... Not Daisy, Daisy is the actress, Rey is the character, picked up her accent from where she grew up has been discussed. Apparently you haven't noticed that Luke and Leia don't even share the same accent despite being brother and sister. Also Anakin and Padme have different accents than their kids. So why would you expect Luke's daughter to speak in the same accent when no other member of his family does?

    The reply you wrote doesn't have anything to do with the quote you used.

    Oh, you know what I meant. I even mentioned Rey's name in my post. It was simply an oversight, no need to exaggerate it.

    Actually there is a need. Actors get really annoyed when you mix up their real names with the characters that they portray. It's not important for understanding what you meant but is important for not pissing people off. Not all of them care that much but it's still a good idea not to mix them up. And considering I have years of experience working with actors it's kind of an involuntary reaction at this point to respond that way whenever anyone gets the names mixed up.

    Luke, and Leia, and Anakin, and Padme, and Han, and Ben Solo do not have Received Pronunciation accents. Sure, you could argue that their US accents were different from one another, but in the Star Wars universe, there is definitely SOME logic involved for its various dialects.

    Luke and Han are really the only ones with American accents. There are really only three U.S. Accents, southern, Brooklyn, and everyone else. There are way more variations in English accents which Leia, Anakin, Padme, and Ben all have. Rey's is defiantly more noticeable but they're all English.

    Also as I said before, there really isn't any logic to their accents considering they come from places that don't exist in their universe. There's really no sense trying to put logic into their accents when realistically they shouldn't even be speaking English. How can people who have never even been to Earth be speaking English with Earth bound accents? It's not possible. Our language, our accents, should not even exist. You're thinking way too much about accents and causing me to think way to much about a work of fiction. Seriously it's not important but if it were there is a real world explanation for why Rey wouldn't speak with the same accent as her parents which has also been established in the films universe so either way there is no logical reason for Rey to have the same accent as Luke.

    These are deliberate choices made by Abrams.

    Just because it's a deliberate choice doesn't mean it's a logical choice. Finn isn't an American, there is no America so logically that accent shouldn't exist.

    You seem to be implying that all choices are inherently made with logic and reason. This is not the least bit true. Most choices made by people have no logic to them what so ever. Some choices may be based on logic but very few actually are.

    I believe that Daisy Ridley's RP accent was kept intentionally, and I don't think the suggestion that Rey picked it up from Jaku is a strong enough argument for it. It's an argument, for sure, but I just don't buy it. If she really is Luke's kid, and if we're following the logic of this universe, I don't know why she wouldn't have a US dialect, like every other member of her family. Writing-wise, it just seems too clumsy to me.

    Again, the universe actually seems to follow how accents develop in the real world. As I mentioned before Luke is the only member of his family who actually has an American accent. This doesn't include Han who isn't actually related him by blood. Anakin actually started with one when he was living on Tattooine but after leaving his home world began to develop a rather weak British accent. Anakin was surrounded by Jedi who spoke in British accents including Obi-Wan so it makes perfect sense why his accent sounds like a mix of American and British while Luke's is more clearly American. Luke lived on Tattooine much longer than his father did so his accent to that region is much more developed. You could also look at Luke and Leia who have entirely different accents because they grew up on entirely different planets. So yes the idea that Rey's accent developed from her living on Jako is actually supported by both the real world and the movie universe. There is no reason why she should sound like Luke. They grew up on entirely different desert planets and there for would not share the same accent.
    Ni, peng, nee-wom! Ecky, ecky, ecky, pakang, zoom-ping! Baa weep grahna weep ninny bong!
  • This looks like a contradiction to me because you're talking about one thing as if it's two different things. I'm finding it hard to understand what it is you think I said when you're talking about what I actually said as if it's something completely different.


    The way I see it, the things you say actually ARE completely different. Even more-so than I realize, now that you're suggesting "should be" and "inspired by" have the same meaning.
    It is one thing to say, "This character is inspired by another."
    "Simba is inspired by Hamlet."
    ... Or, more appropriate to this discussion,
    "Giselle is inspired by Ariel."
    It is an entirely different statement to say "This character's name should be changed to this other character's name."
    That makes as much sense as suggesting Giselle's name be changed to Ariel, just because those characters "share a lot in common," or that Giselle is "inspired by" Ariel. Giselle is not a carbon-copy of Ariel. "Inspiration" does NOT always mean "blatant rip-off."
    You suggest that Ben's name should be changed to Jacen. You realize, of course, that this would mean that Ben is no longer "inspired by" Jacen, and that he would, in fact, "be" Jacen. Which you said is not what you intended to argue.

    As best I can understand it you're taking a comment I made about a NAME to some how encompass that character's entire story. As I pointed out with Sparkplug and Downshift, just because they were meant to be called Bumblebee and Wheeljack doesn't mean they are meant to be the exact same characters from G1. They're different incarnations of those characters who exist in an entirely different universe just as Ben is a different incarnation of Jacen. Just because his name should be Jacen doesn't mean the entire story has to be exactly identical to the comics. It only means that his name should be Jacen. Nothing else about that character is implied by that statement, it's a statement about his name and only his name.


    When you say something like "Ben should just be called Jacen", you are not suggesting Ben is an incarnation of Jacen. You are suggesting that Ben IS Jacen. You are suggesting that Sparkplug IS Bumbleblee. That's the argument here; I'm not arguing Sparkplug can't represent Bumblebee, I'm arguing that you don't call Sparkplug "Bumblebee". That's not who he is. I'd never suggest you change his name, just because he represents another character.
    You made a point of how Daisy Ridley should not be called "Rey" (because you are right; Daisy is NOT Rey) so I'd like to believe you have the capacity to understand the relevance of identity. Ben's identity is Ben. He may share many aspects with Jacen, he may well be inspired by Jacen, but the punchline is "He is not Jacen."


    You quoted this: Um... almost everyone in the Star Wars universe has an English accent and it really doesn't make sense for anyone to have one as there has never been any evidence that England or the Earth for that matter even exist in the Star Wars universe.

    But actually replied to this: Anyway I'm sure the idea that REY... Not Daisy, Daisy is the actress, Rey is the character, picked up her accent from where she grew up has been discussed. Apparently you haven't noticed that Luke and Leia don't even share the same accent despite being brother and sister. Also Anakin and Padme have different accents than their kids. So why would you expect Luke's daughter to speak in the same accent when no other member of his family does?

    The reply you wrote doesn't have anything to do with the quote you used.


    I don't see what you're saying. I think I replied appropriately to what I quoted, considering we were discussing Rey's accent in the previous posts. Maybe I thought a bit too far ahead. In any case.
    You were arguing there was no logic to accents simply because "almost everyone in the Star Wars universe has an English accent". Which is an untrue statement. I was just trying to prove that there actually WAS logic.

    Luke and Han are really the only ones with American accents. There are really only three U.S. Accents, southern, Brooklyn, and everyone else. There are way more variations in English accents which Leia, Anakin, Padme, and Ben all have. Rey's is defiantly more noticeable but they're all English.


    I think you mean "definitely." Or maybe you meant defiantly, Rey certainly was defiant.
    To say that there are really only 3 US accents is patently untrue, I don't know why you'd even suggest that. Bostonian's have accents. Seattleites have accents. Montanans have accents. Philedelphians have accents. And it's pointless to try and group any of them together, because none of them sound remotely like the other. Even Southern accents differ from each other. New Orlean's will prove that. Not everyone in the south sound like cowboys.
    And to say that Leia, Anakin and Padme had English accents is absolutely untrue. Maybe their scripted dialogue sounded a bit proper, but Carrie Fisher, Christian Hayden and Natalie Portman absolutely did not change their personal accents for their character. On the other hand, Obi-Wan, in both his incarnations, retained a RP accent, despite the fact that Ewen McGreggor is Scottish. But aside from him, everyone spoke in their natural voice.

    Also as I said before, there really isn't any logic to their accents considering they come from places that don't exist in their universe. There's really no sense trying to put logic into their accents when realistically they shouldn't even be speaking English. How can people who have never even been to Earth be speaking English with Earth bound accents? It's not possible. Our language, our accents, should not even exist. You're thinking way too much about accents and causing me to think way to much about a work of fiction. Seriously it's not important but if it were there is a real world explanation for why Rey wouldn't speak with the same accent as her parents which has also been established in the films universe so either way there is no logical reason for Rey to have the same accent as Luke.

    Maybe I'm confusing you with the word logic.
    I'm suggesting that some THOUGHT is put into accents. There is a reason none of the Skywalkers have RP accents (and no, Leia, nor Anakin, nor Padme EVER spoke with any HINT of RP [except that one time Leia yelled at that one dude in the Death Star. But Even then, it was just that once.])
    And they don't call it English, they call it... well, I don't know what they call it. Maybe it isn't called English, but what we call "Earth English" is definitely a language in the Star Wars universe. The fact that different languages exist in the film supports that "English" is at least SOME sort of means of communication.
    And there may not be a Great Britain in the Star Wars universe, but they certainly have their version of it.
    What you're essentially saying is that accents don't matter in these films. I disagree. If this film goes as far as creating new languages, just for this universe, then I think they are very capable of putting at least some thought into accents. I don't think it's me "overthinking," I think I'm just giving the filmmakers a bit more credit than they're given for small details.

    Just because it's a deliberate choice doesn't mean it's a logical choice. Finn isn't an American, there is no America so logically that accent shouldn't exist.

    You seem to be implying that all choices are inherently made with logic and reason. This is not the least bit true. Most choices made by people have no logic to them what so ever. Some choices may be based on logic but very few actually are.

    Again, maybe I shouldn't have used the word "logic." That implies some studying was done.
    I'm implying there was "thought" put into accents. Perhaps not anything to write a thesis on, but definitely enough to consider in the film.


    Again, the universe actually seems to follow how accents develop in the real world. As I mentioned before Luke is the only member of his family who actually has an American accent. This doesn't include Han who isn't actually related him by blood. Anakin actually started with one when he was living on Tattooine but after leaving his home world began to develop a rather weak British accent. Anakin was surrounded by Jedi who spoke in British accents including Obi-Wan so it makes perfect sense why his accent sounds like a mix of American and British while Luke's is more clearly American. Luke lived on Tattooine much longer than his father did so his accent to that region is much more developed. You could also look at Luke and Leia who have entirely different accents because they grew up on entirely different planets. So yes the idea that Rey's accent developed from her living on Jako is actually supported by both the real world and the movie universe. There is no reason why she should sound like Luke. They grew up on entirely different desert planets and there for would not share the same accent.

    I don't hear what you're hearing, guy. Anakin never had an English accent. Not as a child, and not as an adult. Neither did Padme. You seem to be confusing their accents with their speech. They say sound proper, but they clearly have non-British accents.
    Even if they did, Luke or Leia wouldn't inherit their parents accents, they were newborns when they were sent away.
    Rey, on the other hand, was, what? 6? 7 years old? Quite honestly, I don't think I was able to really figure out her accent during the flashback sequence, all she yelled was "NO! COME BACK!"
    But she'd be old enough to at least retain an accent, at that point.
  • RialVestroRialVestro Posts: 6,285 ✭✭✭
    edited January 2016
    I'm going to have to brake this into two parts because it was so long. First part is all the Jacen Solo stuff, second part is the conversation about Rey's accent.

    The way I see it, the things you say actually ARE completely different. Even more-so than I realize, now that you're suggesting "should be" and "inspired by" have the same meaning.
    It is one thing to say, "This character is inspired by another."
    "Simba is inspired by Hamlet."


    That's not really a proper analogy to what I'm talking about. Simba has a very story to Hamlet but they took inspiration for that character from a lot of different sources. Do you know about the Anime "Kimba the White Lion" the producers of that Anime actually tried to sue Disney over the Lion King because of the similarities between the two characters. Originally the story was going to be completely different from what it is now and was almost identical to the Kimba story. The story was only changed after the law suit was filed and that's when it began to resemble elements of Hamlet.

    "Giselle is inspired by Ariel."

    Who the heck is Giselle?

    You suggest that Ben's name should be changed to Jacen. You realize, of course, that this would mean that Ben is no longer "inspired by" Jacen, and that he would, in fact, "be" Jacen. Which you said is not what you intended to argue.

    Wrong. This is why I keep using Transformers characters as comparisons for my argument. Just because you call a character Optimus doesn't mean he is G1 Optimus Prime. You can have the same name as another character and be inspired by that character without actually being that character.

    It's not the name that makes them the same character, it's the story behind them that makes them the same character. In order for Ben to actually be the same character not just inspired by Jacen the movie would have to be an exact recreation of his story in the comics. I'm not asking for that, I'm only asking for the name to be changed not the story. He would still only be based on Jacen from the EU he wouldn't be Jacen Solo from the EU. There would basically be two incarnations of Jacen Solo, a Comic Book version and a Live Action version similar to how there are multiple incarnations of Optimus Prime who exist in different universes. Ben would not be comic book Jacen, he would be Movie Jacen which is technically what he already is anyway they just don't call him that which is very similar to how Armada Sparkplug is actually a different incarnation of Bumblebee. The reason he wasn't called Bumblebee is because Hasbro didn't have the rights to that name at the time. They regained the rights in 2007 and that's why we have Movie Bumblebee, Animated Bumblebee, and Prime/RID2 Bumblebee but back in 2001 when Armada was released Hasbro didn't have access to that name and had to change it. These are all different characters who were inspired by G1 but are not that character, they were inspired by him, they mostly share his name, but they are not him. Just as changing Ben's name to Jacen would not make him the same character from the comics. He would still be a separate character just one who happens to share the same name, a name which he was obviously meant to have in the first place but for whatever reason was changed to Ben just as Sparkplug was meant to be called Bumblebee.

    "When you say something like "Ben should just be called Jacen", you are not suggesting Ben is an incarnation of Jacen. You are suggesting that Ben IS Jacen. You are suggesting that Sparkplug IS Bumbleblee. That's the argument here; I'm not arguing Sparkplug can't represent Bumblebee, I'm arguing that you don't call Sparkplug "Bumblebee". That's not who he is. I'd never suggest you change his name, just because he represents another character."

    Here's where I think the problem lies. You seem to be confused as what it actually means to be Bumblebee. Sparkplug is in fact Bumblebee but he is not G1 Bumblebee. I'm not arguing that he is the G1 character only that he is Bumblebee. That's a proven fact if you look at their original Japanese names they are both called Bumble. They're two entirely different characters from two entirely different continuities. Giving them the same name does not make them the same character.

    In case your not aware both Bumblebee and Sparkplug are actually G1 characters. Bumblebee was an Autobot who transforms into a Volkswagen. Sparkplug was a human character believe it or not. Yeah I know that doesn't sound like a human name but that's why they changed it to Ron when they made the live action films. Ron and Sam Witwicky were inspired by Sparkplug and Spike Witwicky respectively. The last name was kept but their first names where changed for obvious reasons. Armada Sparkplug is not human, other than the name he has nothing in common with the G1 character. He is suppose to be called Bumblebee not because he is the G1 character but because he was inspired by the G1 character.

    You made a point of how Daisy Ridley should not be called "Rey" (because you are right; Daisy is NOT Rey) so I'd like to believe you have the capacity to understand the relevance of identity. Ben's identity is Ben. He may share many aspects with Jacen, he may well be inspired by Jacen, but the punchline is "He is not Jacen."

    That's different. Daisy has real emotions and may get offended if you call her Rey. Ben isn't self aware and there for won't care what you call him. Plus if he was a real person he would probably be offended by being called Ben because he is Jacen.
    by RialVestro
    Ni, peng, nee-wom! Ecky, ecky, ecky, pakang, zoom-ping! Baa weep grahna weep ninny bong!
  • RialVestroRialVestro Posts: 6,285 ✭✭✭
    edited January 2016
    Given that this is getting really long and off topic, please send your reply to this post to my PM box or make a new thread. This thread is suppose to be about Kylo Ren and Snoke not Rey's accent so this will be my last reply in thread to this topic.

    I think you mean "definitely." Or maybe you meant defiantly, Rey certainly was defiant.

    It was suppose to be definitely. I think I clicked on the wrong correction when the spell check popped up or actually spelled it that way and didn't notice my mistake since spell check wouldn't of alerted me. I really don't remember what happened when I wrote that.

    To say that there are really only 3 US accents is patently untrue, I don't know why you'd even suggest that. Bostonian's have accents. Seattleites have accents. Montanans have accents. Philedelphians have accents. And it's pointless to try and group any of them together, because none of them sound remotely like the other. Even Southern accents differ from each other. New Orlean's will prove that. Not everyone in the south sound like cowboys.

    Do you live in the U.S.? Have you done any actual research on accents in this country? There isn't much variation here. In the U.K. you can walk down the street and find completely different accents but that doesn't happen in the U.S. If you talk to someone from California or New York (except Brookly) we all sound the same. The most variation we get are from people who weren't actually born in this country. The further south I travel in California the more Mexican accents I hear. Weather they're legal citizens or not isn't relevant to this conversation what is relevant is that they obviously didn't grow up here, but rather in Mexico. A Mexican who was born and raised in the U.S. wouldn't have an accent. Like wise it may be true that not everyone in the south sound like Cowboys but everyone who grew up there do. There are people in the North who have Southern accents because they grew up in the South. It's not where you live now that matters it's where you were raised so all those variations you think are American actually aren't. There's only three that actually develop here.

    You can find maps online that show where accents come from. If you look at a Map of America there is literally only three... Though the map I was looking at only showed the main land. Alaska and Hawaii weren't on there so more like four. I don't really know anyone from Alaska so not sure about that state.

    And to say that Leia, Anakin and Padme had English accents is absolutely untrue. Maybe their scripted dialogue sounded a bit proper, but Carrie Fisher, Christian Hayden and Natalie Portman absolutely did not change their personal accents for their character. On the other hand, Obi-Wan, in both his incarnations, retained a RP accent, despite the fact that Ewen McGreggor is Scottish. But aside from him, everyone spoke in their natural voice.

    Everyone? Are you serious? You think that is Samuel L. Jackson's natural accent? Watch the Avengers and then watch the Star Wars Prequels again. Compare Mace Windu to Nick Fury, they are not the same. Nick Fury is his natural speaking voice. Mace Windu is a fake accent. You could also compare to Snakes on a Plane but I thought it would be better to watch a GOOD movie than to torture you with that. Samuel L. Jackson also does a lot of commercials he basically uses his normal speaking voice in everything EXCEPT Star Wars.

    Maybe I'm confusing you with the word logic.
    I'm suggesting that some THOUGHT is put into accents.


    Oh I agree they probably put some thought into the accents. I just don't agree that it's entirely logical.

    What you're essentially saying is that accents don't matter in these films. I disagree. If this film goes as far as creating new languages, just for this universe, then I think they are very capable of putting at least some thought into accents. I don't think it's me "overthinking," I think I'm just giving the filmmakers a bit more credit than they're given for small details.

    That's actually overthinking. Yeah they deserve some credit for creating alien languages. Most sci-fi movies don't even do that and just have everyone speaking English. However just because they put some thought into it doesn't excuse the fact that English should not exist at all. The real life reason for why aliens speak English is that we speak English. It's much easier to understand a story when we can understand what the characters are saying.

    It's mostly the human characters who speak English in Star Wars and we kind of just accept it despite the fact it makes no real sense. We kind of just assume they can speak English because they came from Earth but as far as I can tell there's never been any evidence that Earth exists in their universe. Of course there's no real mention of any planet where the Human race originated from in their universe. Every other species has a home world but Humans tend to just be colonists who inhabit multiple different planets with no real home world of their own. Anytime you get into why Earth culture exists in a universe with no Earth you're going to overthink.

    You seem to be confusing their accents with their speech.

    I'm not confusing their accents with their speech, that's the same thing. There is no accent without speech.

    They say sound proper, but they clearly have non-British accents.

    They sound proper because they have British accents. Americans don't talk like that. The only English speaking people in the word who actually speak proper English like that are in England. You are hearing what I'm hearing but are attributing the accent to a totally different country than where it's actually from. That is not American, it's British.

    Even if they did, Luke or Leia wouldn't inherit their parents accents, they were newborns when they were sent away.
    Rey, on the other hand, was, what? 6? 7 years old?


    She looked like she was only 4 or 5 to me. Still it wouldn't matter because even if she had grown up with her father that wouldn't mean she would have the same accent. As I explained before parents actually have little to no effect on how their child will talk. Hence why Sarah can speak perfect English despite her mother having a thick German accent. The only way that Rey would share the same accent is if she grew up on the same planet that Luke did. I know they look very similar but Jako is not Tattooine.

    "Quite honestly, I don't think I was able to really figure out her accent during the flashback sequence, all she yelled was "NO! COME BACK!"
    But she'd be old enough to at least retain an accent, at that point."

    You really need to do some research on accents and child development. Kids can pick up on difference accents a lot easier than adults can. If she were in her teens then maybe she would retain her accent but as young as she was, her vocal cords have barely started to develop. Even as old as Anakin was in episode 1 he wasn't done developing yet and could easy pick up a different accent and in fact did. For a teenager it only takes a year to develop a different accent. It may very from one person to the next as everyone develops at different rates but that's the average. Adults may take longer. With kids, it doesn't take long at all. The younger the child the easier it is.

    I developed most of my accents in childhood. Yeah I said accents as in more than one. I am an actor after all. All I had to do was hear it once and then I could copy it. The only accent I was never able to do was Scottish because I could never figure out how to roll my R's like they do and at this point in my life I probably never will. I was already starting to go threw puberty by the time I got around to Scottish accents trying to do that with my voice constantly cracking didn't help.

    At her age in that scene, I don't think she had even developed an accent yet. She was still at an age where little kids are just starting to learn pronunciation. That accent wasn't regional, it was little kiddish.
    by RialVestro
    Ni, peng, nee-wom! Ecky, ecky, ecky, pakang, zoom-ping! Baa weep grahna weep ninny bong!
  • CooliusFreezerCooliusFreezer Posts: 13
    edited January 2016
    Given that this is getting really long and off topic, please send your reply to this post to my PM box or make a new thread. This thread is suppose to be about Kylo Ren and Snoke not Rey's accent so this will be my last reply in thread to this topic.


    If you feel we're veering off topic, we can stop. I see this as a conversation, open for anyone to join. To move it to a PM just seems a bit personal.

    To respect your suggestion, I have moved this discussion to another thread.
    by CooliusFreezer
  • RialVestroRialVestro Posts: 6,285 ✭✭✭
    You do realize I made two posts right? It was so long I had to split up my replies into two parts. The first part is still about Kylo Ren so that can stay in this thread. You didn't reply to the first part so that's why I'm wandering if you even saw the first post.

    I just feel that the stuff about Rey's accent, which is what the second part of the discussion went to was veering off my original topic and deserved it's own thread or at least should be moved to PM to not over load this topic any further. Anyway a link to the new thread would of been helpful but I'm sure I'll find it without one.
    Ni, peng, nee-wom! Ecky, ecky, ecky, pakang, zoom-ping! Baa weep grahna weep ninny bong!
  • CooliusFreezerCooliusFreezer Posts: 13
    edited January 2016
    You do realize I made two posts right?

    I did not. I'll have to read the first, then. Thank you.
    by CooliusFreezer
  • RialVestroRialVestro Posts: 6,285 ✭✭✭
    First off, I don't know why you posted the Kylo Ren argument in the other thread. That can still go here. I just don't want the stuff about Rey's accent in here anymore.

    "From Enchanted. Really, she was an amalgam of other princess, but her Ariel-like personality was the most prevalent trait. But, again, I wouldn't think of saying "She should be called Ariel, or Belle, or Aurora."

    Never seen her named spelled out before. Didn't realize that's who you were talking about. Again not a proper analogy though. As I said before this is why I use Transformers characters as examples. They're different incarnations of the same characters from different versions of the same story. The examples you used are different characters entirely from entirely different stories all together. That's not the same thing.

    Loosely basing a story about a lion on Hamlet is not the same as rewriting Hamlet and changing his name to Simba. To put it another way if this wasn't a Star Wars movie then it would be fine to use a character based on Jacen Solo and not call him Jacen, in fact you would have to for copy right reasons. However because this is a character from Star Wars based on a character from Star Wars he is in fact meant to be Jacen Solo. They can't rip off their own character so there's no reason why he shouldn't use his original name.

    "What you are suggesting is not what the filmmakers intended. They didn't want to make another Jacen. If they did, like you said, they would have just made him Jacen. They wanted a character, and they drew inspiration from Jacen. To call the character "Jacen" just for the sake of making you happy is not a good enough reason to call him Jacen. And really, that's what we seem to be arguing here; what the filmmakers intended, and what you want their intentions to be. More succinctly, what you claim their intentions to be."

    You just contradicted yourself there. You said that the filmmakers did not intend to make another Jacen but they did draw insperation from Jacen. That's the same thing. Because they drew inspiration from Jacen they made another Jacen. If they didn't want another Jacen then they would of made an entirely new character who isn't based on a previously existing one.

    Snoke for example is an entirely new character... well maybe not entirely as he may actually be Plagues... but Jacen's master in the comics was a woman so there's no way he was intended to represent her. Point is if they didn't want him to be Jacen then he wouldn't be but he's a Solo who turned to the Dark side which is exactly what Jacen was which means he is another Jacen.

    "I know what your argument is, don't get me wrong. I just don't understand why you think that's an argument.
    Again, it sounds like you want your own intentions to be the filmmakers'. You're saying "He might as well be called Jacen." Just because the characters are similar, and that maybe Ben was inspired by Jacen. Snoke drew Han's son from the light side of the force. Shall we call him Lumiya?"

    Lumiya and Snoke as I've already pointed out have less in common. They're not the same gender or species. Plus Ben being Jacen is what the filmmakers intended the same as Japan intended Sparkplug to be Bumblebee and Downshift to be Wheeljack.

    The reason Downshift's name was changed is because the name Wheeljack was used for an entirely different character who died years earlier in the same continuity. Hasbro didn't realize that when they used the name that Takara was going to introduce the character in the sequel. So to not confuse the American audience they changed the name of the character who was actually mean to be Wheeljack to Downshift. Though in the cartoon he was actually called Cliffjumper so it still ended up being confusing when their names were reversed in the toy line.

    "I think there are enough differences between Ben and Jacen where Ben can actually be another entity. At this point, you are arguing "Why NOT call him Jacen?" instead of giving actual arguments to why it's necessary. It's NOT necessary. These are different stories, like you said. Can you not live until someone identifies that the filmmakers did, indeed, mean to write in Jacen Solo?"

    He would still be another entity if they called him Jacen. I am giving actual argument to why it's necessary. You agreed earlier in this thread that the name Ben makes no sense. Why would Han and Leia name their kid after a guy Han didn't really care about and Leia hardly knew? He doesn't really have to be Jacen they could call him something else. You could change his name to Kevin and I wouldn't really care as much but why is it Ben? At this point the name Jacen just makes the most sense because he is the movie incarnation of Jacen Solo.

    "You are using this analogy as if it applies. I frankly don't think so.
    The nature of the Transformers franchise (shows, films, what have you) is that there are dozens of iterations of the same characters. That is the nature of the Transformers.
    There are tons Transformers and the GI Joes incarnations; there are only two Star Wars.
    Star Wars is in a strange place right now, in that both the Saga and the EU share the canon Episodes 1-6, but stray heavily from each other in the proceeding timeline.
    But The EU is no longer canon. It has no place in the saga. To say that there is enough of a connection between the EU incarnation of Star Wars and the saga incarnation of Star Wars for the Jacen character to be shared is a stretch. The EU doesn't hold much weight anymore, other than giving writers the gift of creating their own Star Wars stories."

    The analogy does apply and you just explained why it applies. I know you were trying to explain why it doesn't but that actually supports my idea. As you just said, the EU is not cannon. To be honest I never considered it part of the movie universe to begin with. I've always seen it as more of an alternate universe. Some events are similar but not exactly the same. There are parts of the EU that actually contradict each other.

    Look at Darth Maul as an example. In one story he was born with entirely red skin. The black marks are Sith tattoos. However in other stories it's shown that his entire race have those same markings meaning they're not tattoos at all but that's all actually his natural skin color. It's also stated in one story that when he joined the Sith his first act was to destroy all records of his real name and he did that by killing his entire race making him the last of his species. However in other stories there are other members of his race who still exist. These can not be the same character as his story contradicts itself. They would have to be different incarnations of the character.

    Anakin Skywalker has had multiple apprentices in the Expanded universe both as a Jedi and as a Sith however in the films there is never even any mention of their existence. Plus in the 3rd film all the Jedi except for Yoda and Obi-Wan were killed. This was done to explain why there are no other Jedi left in the original trilogy. Yet in the expanded universe there are still multiple Jedi who survived that attack that shouldn't exist.

    This is the main reason why Disney doesn't include the Expanded universe in the continuity anymore because they realized it doesn't make any sense. They're different interpretations of the same story with different incarnations of the same characters. It really doesn't matter what you call him, he's still the movie's version of Jacen Solo.

    "You don't see the parallel here?
    Ben doesn't exist in life, sure, but I have enough respect for the character to give him his own identity. Surely, you must understand that. You said you were an actor."

    Why would anyone care about offending someone who literally can't be offended? That's what I don't understand.

    Plus as an actor, and a fan of breaking the 4th wall, I think that if he was self aware being called Ben would be more offensive than not having his own identity. In fact I've actually joked about this on my channel with a character I created called Dark Mite. For my review of the movie I changed his name to Dedpol Rin. It's intentionally spelled wrong as part of the joke. The "Dark" part of the name comes from how little kids often mispronounce the word Darth and Mite comes from a DC Comics character who also breaks the 4th wall called Bat Mite. Dark Mite is a floating large headed Darth Vader fan similar to how Bat Mite is a floating large headed Batman fan. Being that Disney owns Marvel I took the name of Marvel's most famous 4th Wall Breaker Deadpool and Ren from the Knights of Ren since that is the title meant to replace Darth. They're spelled wrong to mimic how Dark is actually suppose to be Darth and so I don't get copy right infringements for using the name Deadpool.
    Ni, peng, nee-wom! Ecky, ecky, ecky, pakang, zoom-ping! Baa weep grahna weep ninny bong!
  • Nope. I won't do it.

    Now I know why this place is deserted. You are incorrigible.

    And please, Google that word. It fits you perfectly.
Sign In or Register to comment.