Time Travel and marriage, how would it work?

RialVestroRialVestro Posts: 6,344 ✭✭✭
How exactly does Time Lord marriage work? The Doctor has been married at least seven times. Six of his wives we've seen in one fiction or another and whoever the heck Susan's grandmother is.

Patience was married to Omega before later getting remarried to the Doctor.

The 8th Doctor was married to Scarlette in the comics.

The 10th Doctor married Queen Elizabeth the first and then presumably she never saw him again after the wedding prompting her to create the Torchwood institute and declare the Doctor as their enemy. Well she did see him again but from the Doctor's perspective he hadn't done anything yet to make her angry since they don't actually get married till later... and he only asked her to marry him because he didn't think she would actually accept. He was trying to trick what he was thought was a Zygon.

The Eleventh Doctor married Marilyn Monroe.

Oddly there seems to be a three way going on between the Doctor, River Song, and Cleopatra.

So do Time Lords normally practice Polygamy? (marriage to multiple spouses at the same time) Or is it actually Monogamy? (Marriage to a single partner) There's two things to consider here.

1. He's a time traveler so it's hard to say if being married to one person in the 1800's and someone else in the 2000's is really polygamy. On the one hand in the year 2011 when he marries River Song, all of his other wives would technically be dead meaning the marriage doesn't exist at that time period. But on the other hand because he can travel through time and so can River, the women could from each of their points of view be married to the Doctor at the same time. River going into the past, is still the Doctor's wife despite existing in a time before they were actually married.

2. The words till death do we part. Does that apply to the person as a whole or when he dies and regenerates into another man does that mean that any marriage from a previous regeneration no longer counts? Oddly River got married to the 11th Doctor but appears to still consider his previous incarnations her husband as well despite them not actually being married to her yet. The 12th Doctor also still seems to consider River his wife which would suggest that regenerating doesn't erase the marriage. Plus the Doctor was married to River, Marilyn, and Cleopatra all in the same incarnation.

I would think that earlier versions of a person who haven't actually have the experience of the wedding yet do not count as being married. This would mean that when Doctor first met River in Library she was married to him in the future but that version of the Doctor was not her husband. This also means that when Melody meets the Doctor for the first time, she is not his wife.

As to the other part of when exactly a marriage ends... I still don't know. When is it ever appropriate to get remarried if you can continue to see your dead wife at earlier points in her time stream? River technically died before they were married from the Doctor's perspective. Till death do we part doesn't mean much when she's already dead. How does this work?

I'm not putting this in the TV/movies section because some of this comes from comics and radio so I just figured General Discussion would be better. So what are your thoughts on how marriage works when time travel is involved?

Another thing that really bothers me about time travel relationships... they don't seem to ever take into consideration the actual age of the characters. Like lets say I were to time travel to the year 1917. I met a woman who from a certain perspective would actually be my age... except if you go by the year she's in reality 100 years older than I am. We might look the same age because of being displaced in time but from my perspective she's 131 and from her perspective I'm not even born yet. What could we possibly have in common when we both grew up in completely different centuries. Her experiences would be vastly different from mine. We can't talk about movies, or television which is like 90% of my childhood because she wouldn't even know what those things are. She would be boring to me. I might be fascinating to her because she comes from a time where women just cooked and had babies and I come from a time where women actually have their own lives. I think she'd be much more interested in me than I am in her because of the different time periods we grew up in. She can look young because of the time displacement but that won't stop her from acting like a grandma. If I was going to use time travel to get married outside of my own time period, I'd go to the future, find out who my wife is going to be, then travel to the past and arrange it so I met her when we're kids that way we can literally spend our whole lives together. Plus then I can skip over the failed relationships and years of loneliness and just skip straight to the girl I'm suppose to marry in the future.

Other than that I think the first rule of time travel should be never have a relationship with someone outside of your own time line. You could end up becoming your own grandfather or erasing yourself from existence. Just don't do it.
Ni, peng, nee-wom! Ecky, ecky, ecky, pakang, zoom-ping! Baa weep grahna weep ninny bong!

Comments

  • VioletMVioletM A hobbit hole with mezzanine in the centre of the CosmosPosts: 6
    I thought it was Queen Victoria who created the Torchwood institiute (naming it after Torchwood house-the place of her attack by a Lupine Wavelength Haemovariform/werewolf like creature)
    I get why relationships and timetravel aren't the best idea, imagine all the birthdays/anniversaries you coud accidentall miss!
  • RialVestroRialVestro Posts: 6,344 ✭✭✭
    Or never miss because of Time Travel. ;)

    Also if it was Queen Victoria then we still don't actually know how she even knows who the Doctor is. It's possible I could be remembering that wrong but I thought the reason the older queen hated the Doctor when we first see her is because he later got married to the younger version of her and then ran off with 11 and War never to return. Of course he couldn't come back because those events took place right before his regeneration into Matt Smith's Doctor.
    Ni, peng, nee-wom! Ecky, ecky, ecky, pakang, zoom-ping! Baa weep grahna weep ninny bong!
  • RialVestroRialVestro Posts: 6,344 ✭✭✭


    Skip ahead to 4:22 I was right, it was Queen Elizabeth.
    Ni, peng, nee-wom! Ecky, ecky, ecky, pakang, zoom-ping! Baa weep grahna weep ninny bong!
  • VioletMVioletM A hobbit hole with mezzanine in the centre of the CosmosPosts: 6
    My point being that she doesn't create the Torchwood institute (Though i wouldn't blame her if she had done so a few centuries earlier)Wrong Queenie. Queen Vic does (though she doesn't really know the doctor but she's heard about him to a point, probably through family-but Queen Liz 1st didn't have any children so it may just be through the culmination of regenerations that the Doc has become infamous. But like I say, Vic never met him until encountering him, Rose and the Tardis on the scottish highlands) I guess in Doctor Who terms they're lucky that he didn't create some kind of paradox with the 50th anniversary and when he meets the later Queen Liz because knowing Doctor Who it would happen in some convoluted way. Unless you think of time as a railway and the Doctor as a train: Stopping at certain stops but missing others (with additional tracks because Doctor Who) In the earlier episode the train is reversing so to speak so the younger doc meets the older Queen Liz- her stop is quite a few back in the older Docs journey so he meets her when she's younger. For the younger doc the train interchange is closer to older Queenie.
    Actually thats a stupid way of explaining it. Kind of Doctor Who levels of convoluted. Sorry
  • RialVestroRialVestro Posts: 6,344 ✭✭✭
    Someone needs to figure out a language specifically for discussing time travel in a way that doesn't cause massive head aches.
    Ni, peng, nee-wom! Ecky, ecky, ecky, pakang, zoom-ping! Baa weep grahna weep ninny bong!
  • RolloRollo Operative 6081, MiniTrue Airstrip Three, OceaniaPosts: 1,904 ✭✭✭
    In answer to dot points 1 & 2.

    1 - Consider Goodnight Sweetheart. In that Gary Sparrow can't even keep his wife and girlfriend (Yvonne and Phoebe) in two time periods, happy.

    2 - The Doctor hasn't died. Presumably you'd have to unravel the big ball of timey-wimey stuff and follow one timeline to determine if it was polygamy or not. It might very well be appropriate to get remarried, even if you can continue to see your dead wife at earlier points in her time stream because of that very point.

    "I speak an infinite deal of nothing and I am not bound to please thee with my answers."

    I've written four books - you might like to buy them: Linky - Doobly Doo
  • RialVestroRialVestro Posts: 6,344 ✭✭✭
    Technically the Doctor has died multiple times... that's why he needed to regenerate. That's why I thought maybe his marriage to say Queen Victoria when he was David Tenant wouldn't count for Matt Smith's Doctor. Even though they're technically the same person they're also not the same in that his personality also changes when he regenerates.

    From the Doctor's perspective he's the same guy but to Queen Victoria, if he had come back looking and acting like Matt Smith after she married David Tenant from her perspective he wouldn't be the man she married. That man would essentially be dead.

    As for the other part... can you really part from marriage before you're actually married in the first place? I mean they weren't even married yet when River died. The Doctor didn't even know who she was because that was the first time they met is when she died. So if her death ended the marriage before they were ever actually married then that would mean they could never be married at all. That's the thing about running into earlier versions of his dead wife is that even on their wedding day he married an earlier version of his dead wife. There was never a point in their marriage when she wasn't an earlier version of his dead wife because she was always dead to him. Tends to happen when the first time you meet your wife is on the day she dies.
    Ni, peng, nee-wom! Ecky, ecky, ecky, pakang, zoom-ping! Baa weep grahna weep ninny bong!
  • RolloRollo Operative 6081, MiniTrue Airstrip Three, OceaniaPosts: 1,904 ✭✭✭

    Technically the Doctor has died multiple times...

    Untrue.

    The Doctor would have died had he not been given a new regeneration cycle on Trenzalore.
    In The Deadly Assassin it was said that Time Lords can regenerate 12 times; then they'd be dead.
    "I speak an infinite deal of nothing and I am not bound to please thee with my answers."

    I've written four books - you might like to buy them: Linky - Doobly Doo
  • RialVestroRialVestro Posts: 6,344 ✭✭✭
    You're talking about being compleatly dead, I'm talking about only mostly dead. Every time the Doctor regenerates (except for that one time with the spare hand) that incarnarnation of the Doctor dies and some new guy goes walking off in his place. Ten explained this that even though he doesn't actually die it still feels like dying. So by the Doctors own words he has died multiple times... it's just not permanent until he runs out of regenerations or he's killed while regenerating.
    Ni, peng, nee-wom! Ecky, ecky, ecky, pakang, zoom-ping! Baa weep grahna weep ninny bong!
  • RolloRollo Operative 6081, MiniTrue Airstrip Three, OceaniaPosts: 1,904 ✭✭✭

    Ten explained this that even though he doesn't actually die it still feels like dying. So by the Doctors own words he has died multiple times...

    Rule #1: The Doctor lies.
    He hasn't died multiple times; he hasn't died once yet.

    Compare this with The Master. He was resurrected by the Time Lords during the Great Time War and they gave him a new cycle of regenerations. This is either said in "Utopia" or "The Sound Of Drums", I forget which.

    "I speak an infinite deal of nothing and I am not bound to please thee with my answers."

    I've written four books - you might like to buy them: Linky - Doobly Doo
  • RialVestroRialVestro Posts: 6,344 ✭✭✭
    But it's not only said by the Doctor. Several Time Lords in the classic series confirm that a Time Lord only regenerates when they die. So if the Doctor has never died he'd still be William Hartnell.

    The Master is a bit of a oddity to begin with since the first incarnation we're introduced to is actually the 13th. After that he survived by some how possessing other people's bodies before he was resurrected to fight in the time war and given a new regeneration cycle.

    Also we're kinda getting off topic as this isn't strictly a Doctor Who discussion. I just used his weird bizzar marriages as an example for what this topic is actually suppose to be about.
    Ni, peng, nee-wom! Ecky, ecky, ecky, pakang, zoom-ping! Baa weep grahna weep ninny bong!
  • RolloRollo Operative 6081, MiniTrue Airstrip Three, OceaniaPosts: 1,904 ✭✭✭
    As stated on BBC Radio 4's The Infinite Monkey Cage, strawberries don't die.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b02ykcwh

    I do wonder though whether or not strawberries have memories of previous regenerations.
    "I speak an infinite deal of nothing and I am not bound to please thee with my answers."

    I've written four books - you might like to buy them: Linky - Doobly Doo
  • NotGreenJohnNotGreenJohn Posts: 10
    So I think that the Doctor, and most likely other Time Lords, Ladies, and Non-Gender Specific People, view most romantic relationships with people who cannot time travel as being not really possible, or real, for obvious reasons. But I feel like they do see relationships with other Time Peoples, and probably other human/alien time traveling as quite real. Take for example how the Doctor seems to date/be married to River throughout several regenerations. So I feel like we need to distinguish between relationships between two, or more, time traveling people and relationships where not everyone can travel in time.
  • RialVestroRialVestro Posts: 6,344 ✭✭✭
    edited July 7
    Can't remember if I ever explained my personal views on this but I think if time travel was possible I would only date girls within five years of my own age by our actual birth dates. What I mean by that is that even if she appears to be my age when our time lines are out of cinc I wouldn't actually consider her to be close to my age unless she's born between 1981 and 1991. And even if I was in a time period where we weren't together I'd still consider us a couple until either her present self and I break up or one of dies.

    Now that's the really complicated part is if one of us dies outside of our own time line. Because she could die before we've even met but basically I'm going by our own time line not the out of sync time line.

    Also if Time Travel were possible I'd use it to arrange for our parents to meet before either of us were born that way we could litterally spend our entire lives together. The younger versions of us would grow up knowing that they're married in the future.
    by RialVestro
    Ni, peng, nee-wom! Ecky, ecky, ecky, pakang, zoom-ping! Baa weep grahna weep ninny bong!
  • NotGreenJohnNotGreenJohn Posts: 10
    RialVestro, I think that would be really sweet, however it could change the future. Sure you may love them when you meet them later in life, but how heartbreaking would it be if when you knew them from childhood it makes you feel completely different about them? Time is a tricky thing and, as awesome as it would be to grow up with your love, I feel it is too dangerous to mess with like that. But then again, people have done a lot stupider things for love.

    And to your point about only dating someone born close to your birth, I think that may make sense. It really depends on the mechanics of how you're time traveling. If you just time travel once in awhile but spend most of your time in your original time, I think that makes perfect sense. However, if you are more like the Doctor and are a time nomad, not really living in one time for too long, I feel like that really doesn't matter so much. I feel like what is more important is that you bring your love with you in your travels and not just stop by for brief visits But, like I said, I think it all really just depends on your time traveling situation.
  • RialVestroRialVestro Posts: 6,344 ✭✭✭
    Well the reason I say stay close to your own time line...

    If you travel into the past you risk the grandfather paradox. In other words she might look your age because you're out of sync but really she's an old woman and possibly could be one of your own ancestors. If you were to hook up with her you could potentially end up as your own grandfather or prevent your own existence. Even if you aren't related there could be problems. What if the person has an important role in history, you can't take them with you, even dating them could potentially change the future. Like what if she's George Washington's future wife but because she hooked up with a time traveler then she never meets George, they never get married, he ends up with someone else or never marries and there's no telling how much history could change if those events never happened. Could be insignificant, maybe worse. People do act different for love so without that love he might be suicidal we don't know.

    If you go into the future again she might look my age but could potentially be related to me. Hell even in my own time with the size of my family there's still a very real possibility that I could end up dating my cousin and not even know it. I do have a few female cousins my age who I've never met. But time travel makes things a bit more complicated because not only would she be a relative but technically is actually younger than me. Just because she looks like an adult doesn't really make a difference to me, if she's a child or infant in my time or worse, not even born yet, that's just really creepy to me even if we're not related.

    Steve's relationship with his ex-girlfriend's granddaughter is creepy cause he's technically like 90 years old. He still looks like he did in WWII but the time displacement actually makes me think he should be with some old woman from his own time. Though that has complications as well like the fact that he can outlive every woman from his own time and has already outlived his ex girlfriend. And the fact that he hooked up with her granddaughter at her funeral really doesn't make it any less creepy.

    As to your other point about growing up together possibly changing the way we feel about each other. I've considered that, but I think it could only make the relationship stronger. If for some reason we end up hating each other then we probably weren't a good match to begin with. I kinda see it as the ultimate test to see if a relationship can really last. Childhood relationships that happen naturally rarely last forever. The Cory and Tapanga fantacy is literally just a fantacy for most people. There have been a few people who met as children but that is extremely rare. But hey if you're adults and have access to time travel it'd probably be more common for couples to have met as children. That's like the ultimate romantic fantacy is to literally spend your entire life with the one you love. For most people that would require time travel to pull off cause most meet as adults. The word is just so big the chances of finding love early on are like 1 in a billion. And still some people never find love which is rather sad but a lot more likely than finding it in childhood.

    I'd gladly take the risk to make it so I could grow up with her. My childhood was kinda crappy the first time around. And that's putting it mildly. I think the good that could come from changing my history would outweigh the risks.
    Ni, peng, nee-wom! Ecky, ecky, ecky, pakang, zoom-ping! Baa weep grahna weep ninny bong!
  • RolloRollo Operative 6081, MiniTrue Airstrip Three, OceaniaPosts: 1,904 ✭✭✭
    Is Missy/Master allowed to marry them/her/him/zhe/kwa/self?
    "I speak an infinite deal of nothing and I am not bound to please thee with my answers."

    I've written four books - you might like to buy them: Linky - Doobly Doo
  • RialVestroRialVestro Posts: 6,344 ✭✭✭
    Well they're technically the same person. That really depends on the culture, if you're going by Earth cultures I could be wrong and I'm sure someone will correct me later, but I don't think anyone on Earth has ever legally married them self. If that's true or not it doesn't mean there aren't cultures on other planets where it could be legal. Having sex with yourself would technically be masterbation even if you have different genitals from yourself. It's still you just in a different body.

    Though given how Missy reacted to the Master being attracted to her it seems like getting married to yourself isn't legal in time lord society... most likely because you're not even suppose to cross your own time line like that. But maybe they could of found some place where it could be legal.
    Ni, peng, nee-wom! Ecky, ecky, ecky, pakang, zoom-ping! Baa weep grahna weep ninny bong!
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